RAINN on Rape Culture
Will Shetterly wrote a blog post asking if I had addressed “RAINN’s refutation of ‘rape culture’” yet. I’m writing this less to respond to Shetterly and more because I think there’s some good conversation to be had around RAINN’s recommendations. But I should warn folks that by invoking his name and linking to his blog post, I’m basically guaranteeing that Mr. Shetterly will show up in the comments. To Will and anyone else, please remember that trolling, refusing to respect boundaries, and general dickishness will get you booted.
The Rape Abuse Incest National Network (RAINN) released 16 pages of recommendations to the federal government. In his blog post, Will chooses to quote a TIME Magazine article by Caroline Kitchens about “Rape Culture Hysteria” that references a few select paragraphs from RAINN’s recommendations. Kitchens claims that by blaming rape culture, we “implicate all men in a social atrocity, trivialize the experiences of survivors, and deflect blame from the rapists truly responsible for sexual violence.” She talks about the “thought police of the feminist blogosphere,” and how the concept of rape culture poisons the minds of young women and creates a hostile world for young men.
I’m glad to know Mr. Shetterly is looking for good, objective reporting to validate his crusade against those he dubs “social justice warriors.”
Let’s look at the primary source and talk about what RAINN’s recommendations actually said, shall we?
The paper opens with a discussion of how rape is alarmingly underreported on college campuses. Rape culture is mentioned on page two:
“In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming ‘rape culture’ for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.”
I absolutely agree that it’s important to hold rapists accountable for their choice to rape. I’ve been saying and emphasizing and teaching that for decades. I think it’s absurd to claim an individual has no responsibility for their crime … but it’s equally absurd to claim that crime occurs in a cultural vacuum, or that these two ideas are mutually exclusive.
Most of the time, when I see rapists being excused with little more than a wrist-slapping for “cultural” reasons, it’s judges and police blaming victims, or the old “boys will be boys” attitude that minimizes the severity of the crime and the responsibility of the rapist. Which is exactly what so many conversations about rape culture try to point out.
RAINN says it’s important to remember that the rapist is responsible for the choice to commit rape. I agree. They do not say that the concept of rape culture is invalid, only that it shouldn’t overshadow the need to hold individuals responsible for their crimes.
RAINN recommends a three-tiered approach to reducing rape on college campuses:
- Bystander intervention education: empowering community members to act in response to acts of sexual violence.
- Risk-reduction messaging: empowering members of the community to take steps to increase their personal safety.
- General education to promote understanding of the law, particularly as it relates to the ability to consent.
Bystander intervention includes educating people about what rape is, helping them see beyond rape myths and victim-blaming narratives, sharing the research that explains how the majority of rapes are committed not by strangers, but by people the victim knows, and so on. (Strangely enough, a lot of the points I made in a blog post about rape culture a few years back.)
RAINN acknowledges the difficulty in separating risk-reduction from victim-blaming. Personally, I have very little problem with a risk-reduction approach. I do have a problem when that’s the only approach, which seems to happen all too often. When people focus solely on what women/victims can and must do to reduce rape, then we put the responsibility on them. If your only idea about reducing rape is to tell women what to do differently, you’re the one who doesn’t understand that rapists are responsible for their decision to rape.
I’ve been pushing for education for ages, including education about the laws. And for improvement in those laws, based in part on a better understanding and definition of consent. Unfortunately, a lot of people have a very poor understanding of consent. We encourage things like getting prospective sexual partners drunk, pursuing reluctant or uninterested partners, and the myth that you should just magically know what your partner wants. (It’s almost like we have an entire culture that doesn’t really get how consent works.)
On the legal side of things, RAINN stresses that college advisory boards aren’t in a position to be deciding rape cases. I agree. I worked as part of a student justice program at Michigan State University. Rape cases went to the police. We tended to work with things more on the level of catcalling from the street, trying to intervene with behaviors and attitudes before they escalated to more serious crimes. The goal was early intervention and prevention.
But there’s also a culture (oh look, there’s that word again) of secrecy around sexual assault and abuse, and I certainly understand that many institutions do try to bury rape reports and pretend it’s not a problem for them. Steubenville is a good, well-known example.
The report then goes on to talk about:
- The need for more education for everyone about rape
- The need for the legal system to respond more seriously to rape cases
- The need to provide support services to victims
- The need for more research
In RAINN’s 16-page report, we find a single mention of “rape culture,” which is part of a paragraph stating that rape culture shouldn’t be used as a way to remove responsibility from the rapist. Sorry, Will. I see no “refutation of rape culture” here, just a call for a balanced approach, one which I generally support and agree with.
I get that Mr. Shetterly is mostly just interested in scoring points against those he deems “social justice warriors.” My advice to him would be that if your knowledge and understanding of rape is such that you believe “saying no usually works” to prevent it, maybe you should try talking listening to rape survivors and learning more about the topic before you try to have this kind of conversation.
Darci
April 18, 2014 @ 4:08 pm
Well, how can your years of training and counseling and advocacy possibly stack up to Shetterly’s … nothing, I guess?
Thanks for all you do, Jim.
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 18, 2014 @ 4:13 pm
Good work. I’m guessing Jim has already read this, but I really like Amanda Marcotte’s handling of the RAINN report. She writes (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/03/18/rainn_attacks_the_phrase_rape_culture_in_its_recommendations_to_the_white.html):
“Feminists who coined and spread the phrase “rape culture” are not denying that rapists need to be held personally responsible for their criminal behavior. They are pointing out all the cultural reasons that this doesn’t happen: the myth that false accusations are common, the myth that rapists are just confused about consent, and the myth that victims share the blame for drinking too much or otherwise making themselves vulnerable. Only by tackling these cultural problems will we be able to see clearly that rapists know exactly what they’re doing and punish them for it. Rape culture doesn’t cause the desire to rape, but it allows rapists to rape with the confidence that comes from knowing you’re very unlikely to be prosecuted for it.”
Says it all for me.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 4:16 pm
I hadn’t seen that. Thank you.
And yes, that!
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 18, 2014 @ 4:18 pm
Marcotte is one of my go-to feminists for pretty much everything except parenting (since she doesn’t have or want kids).
Genevieve Williams
April 18, 2014 @ 5:20 pm
As a side note, do you have any recommendations along these lines for parenting? I don’t have kids either but occasionally get requests from friends who do.
Annalee
April 18, 2014 @ 5:25 pm
Content warning for assault.
“Saying no usually works?” Seriously?
Gee, I should have tried that. Oh, wait. I wasn’t conscious at the time.
Maybe I should have tried it the time I was assaulted while awake. I shouted “STOP! STOP! PUT ME DOWN!” But I didn’t say “NO” so I guess that explains why he didn’t stop until I stopped struggling, and why everyone nearby acted like it was funny.
Ten points to Slytherin, WS. Way to argue that rape culture doesn’t exist while providing a glittering example of it for all the world to see. Rapists aren’t good guys who don’t understand consent and just need people to be clear about their boundaries. They’re predators who are experts at playing off boundary violations as ‘misunderstandings.’
You know what usually works? Waiting for yes usually works.
Carpe Librarium
April 18, 2014 @ 5:56 pm
Skepchick has a relatively new (less than a year old) sister site called Grounded Parents which has some good contributors.
I realise it may not be for everyone, however by now they have enough archived posts from each contributor for you to see if any particular writer appeals to you.
From memory, some of the writers have other websites as well.
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 18, 2014 @ 6:07 pm
I really like Soraya Chemaly. Here’s one. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/the-problem-with-boys-will-be-boys_b_3186555.html
Jessica Valenti is a mom and and a great writer. Read “The Purity Myth.” I don’t know off the top of my head for something specific on parenting.
I’ve been trying to do some father writing about parenting issue, such as this http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/28/opinion/perry-gender-children/index.html
Sine Nomine
April 18, 2014 @ 7:19 pm
Jim, do you really want to impose Mr. Shetterly on rape victims? That seems awfully mean of you. I don’t know who this guy is, but he seems to like twisting and misrepresenting facts to make arguments that cause damage and hurt people.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:21 pm
Jim, I realize that shades of grey are hard to see, but “usually” means “usually”, not “always”. I added a couple of links to the post you linked to here in the hope of clarifying this somewhat.
As for Marcotte and company, I fully realize that rape culture theorists are trying to incorporate the work by Lisak and others on predators, but retconning is retconning, no matter how good your intentions.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:22 pm
“Jim, do you really want to impose Mr. Shetterly on rape victims?”
I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what you mean here.
CF
April 18, 2014 @ 7:24 pm
You are one classy guy.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:24 pm
“Retconning is retconning,” says the man who immediately changed his blog post after being challenged on it.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:25 pm
Oh, as for those you say I dub “social justice warriors”, I didn’t dub them. The term’s been around for ages. I keep looking for a politer alternative, but the warriors don’t use a name for themselves, and the name does describe their online behavior well—they’re essentially a subset of identitarians who think social justice is about identity rather than poverty and that they can make a better world by telling people to die in fires. If you know a better name for them, I’d be delighted to adopt it.
Sine Nomine
April 18, 2014 @ 7:30 pm
In your last paragraph your advice to him is “…maybe you should try talking to some rape survivors”.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:31 pm
Oh, right. Yeah, maybe not so much. Let me tweak that line…
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:33 pm
What do you mean by that? If you’re alluding to Racefail, I’ll happily remind you there were many updatings and deletions then, including Coffeeandink’s altering of the public posts in which she used her legal name. It was a crazy time.
But if you have something else in mind, remind me and I’ll happily address it.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:35 pm
I responded to your blog post. You immediately went back to edit it, then ran over here to make your rather bizarre accusation about retconning.
Reading both of these things in the same comment just amused me, that’s all.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:36 pm
And you’re not going to talk about Racefail here. If you feel the urge to go through all of that yet again, you can do it on your own blog.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:36 pm
And it’s odd that you charge me with changing a post while you change the last line on this one.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:37 pm
What editing? I added a couple of links for context, clearly marked with an “ETA”.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:39 pm
I’m not the one whining about “retconning.”
And try to read more carefully, please. I didn’t “charge” you with anything. I just pointed out the juxtaposition of editing your blog post and then accusing others of retconning in the very same comment.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:42 pm
Hey, if you want to pretend rape culture theorists were never in conflict with predator theory, it’s your blog. But I did write about that, too: http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2012/09/predator-theory-vs-rape-culture-theory.html
Sine Nomine
April 18, 2014 @ 7:42 pm
That’s much better, although I obviously doubt he has, or ever will, considering listening to people’s lived in experiences. Be careful though, apparently retconning is retconning, he may get angry.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:45 pm
That post looks to be roughly of the same caliber as the one I responded to here.
Are we done now?
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:46 pm
Oh yes, we had the retconning discussion in the comments downstream.
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 7:47 pm
CF – Sorry, but I’m not sure who you’re responding to or whether or not this was meant as sarcasm…
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:49 pm
No worries. I’m a fan of civility. As for listening to lived experiences, I always do. But that does not mean I accept their conclusions. Someone who has undergone horrible things may tell you that Satan or Xenu is responsible, but you don’t have to believe them. White people have done horrible things to black people since the social construct of race was established, but that doesn’t mean NOI is correct about us being white devils who were created 6,600 years ago by a scientist named Yakub.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:50 pm
I hope so. But one never knows, do one?
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 7:51 pm
Oops, clicked the “reply” under rather than over the post I meant to respond to. The previous comment was meant as an answer to Jim’s “Are we done now?” But it works here, too.
Kate
April 18, 2014 @ 7:54 pm
Andie Fox is an Australian writer who writes about motherhood and feminism a lot. Her personal blog is at http://bluemilk.wordpress.com/, and has links to articles she’s written elsewhere.
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 18, 2014 @ 8:09 pm
I have a few more links Jim. I apologize if I am derailing, but I thought they might be useful pieces for this discussion. This is an issue I spend a lot of time on. One is now a go-to for me to talk about violence against women, especially in the men-talking-to-men about rape. The other is mine.
1. Tom Meagher’s wife was raped and murdered by a monster some time ago. He has written this AMAZING essay saying that rape is not about monsters, but about rape culture. It would be a powerful piece from anyone, but from Meagher:
http://whiteribbonblog.com/2014/04/17/the-danger-of-the-monster-myth/
2. Here’s my piece about the justice system and rape culture. I think it makes the points about the culture as well as I’ve been able to make them. I’ll keep trying to to get better at it though.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/11/opinion/perry-rape-disabled-georgia/index.html?hpt=hp_t4
And yeah, I’m someone who works for social justice. I don’t consider myself a warrior, just a worker.
Muccamukk
April 18, 2014 @ 8:48 pm
Great post, Jim.
Has “SJW” become the new “PC”?
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 8:51 pm
“I’ve noticed an extremely high correlation between folks who use the phrase ‘social justice warrior’ non-ironically, and complete assholes.” -John Scalzi
Kat
April 18, 2014 @ 9:45 pm
I’m sorry, but did you seriously just try to disprove an argument by referring to the lunatic fringe? You just brought into this conversation so many logical fallacies that I’m pretty sure you just made a Republican blush. Let’s try and steer this train back on track, shall we?
First, to get it out of the way since it obviously needs doing, there is and will always be a “lunatic fringe,” defined here as people with extreme beliefs and/or actions. However, no sane person judges an entire group by their lunatic fringe. Jim Jones is not the poster boy for how every Christian thinks, the Klu Klux Klan is not seen as model for race relations, Stalin is not the figurehead for how every Russian acts and thinks, and there has never been a time in all human history that we’ve looked at an extremely mentally ill person and decided that s/he personified all it meant to be human. There will always be those who need to hold on to extremist beliefs, and whose beliefs MAY drive them to extreme actions. But these are EXCEPTIONS. If a horse happens to be born with three legs, we don’t run out and change all the scientific manuals to reflect a single, three legged horse, we acknowledge it as an aberration and move on.
Now, that said, it also has to be acknowledged that no, you are NOT listening to rape victims. You might be standing in their presence while they flap their gums (or skimming their posts with half an eye), but you aren’t really LISTENING. In fact, you barely show any respect for them at all. See, you’ve already decided they’re crazy, extremists, that their stories ARE LEGITIMATELY COMPARABLE to a small religious cult who believes scientists created the white man 6000 years ago. Every time you read their stories or listen to them talk, you have ALREADY DECIDED that their full of dog droppings, that they don’t REALLY know their own minds, that they can’t truly grasp what happened to them, and that the things they say and think are actually a sort of sad, mentally ill crazy created by all that pain. You have decided that their words and thoughts of the situation shouldn’t be trusted, and THAT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THEM what they personally experienced. That you know better what happened in a situation YOU WEREN’T EVEN THERE FOR.
Which, I’d like to point out, plays into the “women can’t be trusted,” “women lie,” “women are overemotional,” “women are crazy,” and “women are too dumb to know their own minds” tropes to a tee. Moving on.
Let’s Occam’s Razor this puppy, shall we?
In America in 2012, there were 316,128,839 people, and 50.8% of those people were female (to keep things simple, we will–with apologies–not be dealing with male rape victims). About 1 in 6 women in America have been victims of rape or sexual assault, which comes to roughly 9,483,865 people (we will also be ignoring the fact that rape and sexual assault are vastly underreported). Now let’s make the number simpler at a flat 9 million.
What you seem to be saying is that NINE MILLION women are too emotionally distraught (or stupid) to know exactly what happened to them. That nine million women didn’t know enough to say no. That nine million women with terrifyingly similar stories of their attacks are all somehow cluelessly deluded as to what they REALLY needed to do to prevent their own rapes; that all nine million made the same basic mistakes that got them in that mess in the first place. You are comparing nine million women’s stories of pain and survival to a tiny cult who has a thing for a scientist named Yakub. That all these females, from the youngest child raped by her daddy to the 80 year old woman raped in her home by strangers, are all, to a woman, WRONG.
And that you–one SINGLE man–know ever so much better than NINE MILLION WOMEN exactly what happened to them and why.
Occam’s Razor has a lot of different ways it’s interpreted and used, but overall it’s about simplifying. It’s basic gist is that the simplest answer is probably the right one.
So, with that understanding of Occam’s Razor firmly in mind…….is it more likely that NINE MILLION WOMEN of all ages, ethnicities, cultural backgrounds, and walks of life are all either lying, mentally unhinged, deluded, power hungry, man-hating, or otherwise accidentally or on purpose members of a great conspiracy created solely to take power from men–or even all just too stupid to truly understand what happened to them?
Or is it MORE LIKELY that you might be a little prejudiced against what they have to say?
Kat
April 18, 2014 @ 9:46 pm
Hmmm…my post did not land where I thought it would. It was in response to this said by Will:
“No worries. I’m a fan of civility. As for listening to lived experiences, I always do. But that does not mean I accept their conclusions. Someone who has undergone horrible things may tell you that Satan or Xenu is responsible, but you don’t have to believe them. White people have done horrible things to black people since the social construct of race was established, but that doesn’t mean NOI is correct about us being white devils who were created 6,600 years ago by a scientist named Yakub.”
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 9:53 pm
Kat –
are you working on a mobile device or a computer? Clicking REPLY by a comment should thread the reply correctly, but I recently revamped the site, so it’s possible something’s still glitchy. Wait, I see what’s happening. People are clicking the REPLY link below the comment, which is actually connected to the next comment. I’ll need to look and see if there’s a way to adjust that setting to make it more clear…Lani
April 18, 2014 @ 9:57 pm
Kat, I just want to say, I love you. This is so far beyond what I am capable of saying…the more people say stupid things, the more angry I get, and the more incapable of coherent speech I get. Hard to argue with someone, or sway their minds, when you’re only capable of ursine growling…
Jim C. Hines
April 18, 2014 @ 10:11 pm
Okay, tossed some custom CSS into the theme to move the “Reply” link. Hopefully this will be more intuitive for folks, and won’t break the layout!
HelenS
April 18, 2014 @ 10:23 pm
I’m still pissed at RAINN. What the hell problem were they trying to solve there?
Karen Robinson
April 18, 2014 @ 10:24 pm
It’s worse even than that – it’s closer to 26 million (316 million divided by 2 divided by 6 = 26.3 million). That’s roughly the population of Texas.
Dragoness Eclectic
April 18, 2014 @ 10:28 pm
IMHO, “Social Justice Warrior” is to “Social Justice Activist” as “Internet Atheist” is to “New Atheist”–
In the analogy, the latter is someone with a particular set of ideals and beliefs, who will talk about them and even explain themselves; the former is a person who uses the same set of ideals and beliefs as a club to beat other people over the head with, to justify egregious bad manners, and to feel smug about how superior they are to you.
Muccamukk
April 18, 2014 @ 10:40 pm
I saw that post. It was a good post.
Muccamukk
April 18, 2014 @ 10:49 pm
That may be the INTENTION, which we can debate the usefullness of, I guess, but the majority of times I’ve seen it actually used on the wider Internet, it’s been used to “call out” someone like Jim, John Scalzi or Nora Jeminsin for saying something the person using it doesn’t like/agree with/feels is critical of them.
Whatever the original intention, the term’s been so used and abused that it’s lost all meaning for me, besides being a handy way to indicate complete assholes.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 10:52 pm
You cannot use “social justice warrior” non-ironically. Well, unless you use Alanis Morisette’s dictionary. I wrote about that here: http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/02/about-my-social-justice-warrior-book-my.html
Kat
April 18, 2014 @ 10:59 pm
This looks right. 🙂 Thank you!
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 11:00 pm
There are problems with that “one in six” conclusion. Wikipedia’s “Rape statistics” is a good place to look if you care to research it. Or you could google “How the CDC is overstating sexual violence in the U.S.”, which includes this:
“The agency’s figures are wildly at odds with official crime statistics. The FBI found that 84,767 rapes were reported to law enforcement authorities in 2010. The Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard in crime research, reports 188,380 rapes and sexual assaults on females and males in 2010. Granted, not all assaults are reported to authorities. But where did the CDC find 13.7 million victims of sexual crimes that the professional criminologists had overlooked?”
Kat
April 18, 2014 @ 11:00 pm
I don’t suppose, if I copy/paste my Big Long reply where it belongs that you could then delete my misplaced comment, could you?
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 18, 2014 @ 11:16 pm
That’s a very good question. I haven’t seen an answer to that question anywhere that makes sense to me (and I track this stuff pretty closely).
Kat
April 18, 2014 @ 11:19 pm
Did you read your own statistic?
“The Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard in crime research, reports 188,380 rapes and sexual assaults on females and males IN 2010.”
That is the amount of crimes REPORTED (not committed) in a single year. Now, start multiplying that by ten years, twenty, or eighty. EVERY YEAR more women are assaulted. And the fact that we flip a page on a calendar does not unassault these women. So, while only 1-200,000 NEW crimes might be reported in a year, that doesn’t speak to the overall total. This is basic logic 101. Professional criminologists didn’t “overlook” these people, they just have a different focus–that is, the crime happening NOW, while the CDC is looking at the overall patterns in society.
And, um, yeah, I was on the Wikipedia page as I gathered my figures. Was that truly all you walked away from it with? Personally, I rather enjoyed this gem: “Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 percent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.” Meaning my 9 million estimate? INCREDIBLY conservative.
Ken
April 18, 2014 @ 11:35 pm
Ok, if you must, replace “nine million” with “188,380 per year” in Kat’s comment and then actually address her point. Rather than trying to distract with arguing whose numbers are more “gold standard” people might take you more seriously if you actually addressed the point.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 11:46 pm
You assume the great majority of women won’t report rape. I do not. That’s why the bit I find most interesting in what I quoted is “where did the CDC find 13.7 million victims of sexual crimes that the professional criminologists had overlooked?”
As for the Wikipedia page, the point is that there are many claims. You’re choosing the 2007 English calculations because they support what you believe. It’s called confirmation bias. Let’s compromise with RAINN, which offers, “60% of sexual assaults are not reported to the police.” If RAINN is right, there were 188,380 reported rapes out of a likely 470,950. So while that is 470, 950 too many, it’s far short of your 9 million.
As for the numbers reflecting what women know, the statistics you’re citing are *not* based on what the women report. As the CDC article noted, “It found them by defining sexual violence in impossibly elastic ways and then letting the surveyors, rather than subjects, determine what counted as an assault. Consider: In a telephone survey with a 30 percent response rate, interviewers did not ask participants whether they had been raped. Instead of such straightforward questions, the CDC researchers described a series of sexual encounters and then they determined whether the responses indicated sexual violation.”
It elaborates on that if you wish to know more. But frankly, I prefer to trust the women themselves rather than the surveyers.
Will Shetterly
April 18, 2014 @ 11:49 pm
The problem they were—and are—trying to solve is rape. They realized Lisak is right about the best way to protect people from rapists.
Ken
April 18, 2014 @ 11:50 pm
Thank you for those links. Quite powerful and informative.
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 18, 2014 @ 11:58 pm
Your welcome. Thanks for reading them.
HelenS
April 19, 2014 @ 12:04 am
Disingenuous. Lisak’s work does not suggest abandoning or even de-emphasizing the notion of rape culture.
Will Shetterly
April 19, 2014 @ 12:13 am
Argue with RAINN, not me. I strongly recommend reading the pdf of their statement. It includes this:
“Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.
“While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”
HelenS
April 19, 2014 @ 12:18 am
Disingenuous. What did I just say? “I’m still pissed at RAINN.”
Will Shetterly
April 19, 2014 @ 12:24 am
I hear you. There are Catholics who’re still pissed about Vatican 2. There’s a good article about censorship in India—
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/may/08/india-censorship-batra-brigade/
—which includes this line, “Any new idea offends people who are committed to the old idea, which is to say, most people”. It really is perfectly natural for rape theorists to be pissed at RAINN.
Kat
April 19, 2014 @ 2:06 am
At this point I can only conclude you’re being deliberately dense. In fact, I suspect this goes back to your unwillingness to listen.
Lets toss those numbers again. Your number, 470,950, states how many women have been raped in a year. Multiply that by 80 years and you have 37,676,000 rapes, roughly. And THAT is WAY over my 9 million mark. Even taking out a good quarter of that number (9,419,000) in that some women were potentially repeat victims, that still leaves 28,257,000 women who were raped or sexually assaulted in an eighty year period.
That estimate is based on YOUR numbers. If at this point you truly don’t understand where the CDC might have pulled their statistics, it’s because you don’t WANT to know.
Its also pretty obvious you don’t have a lot of knowledge about rape itself, what it does to a person, or how they react to it. If you did, you’d know that many women may try to deny or trivialize what happened to them, or hide it, or may even have been shamed into believing it was their fault. When that happens, they tend not to admit to actual rape or assault, even when a rape or assault has occurred. It’s the sexual assault equivalent of a battered wife insisting she deserved that black eye.
Because of this problematic response, researchers trying to explore the actual scope of the problem won’t ask “were you raped?” They will instead ask about scenarios that are indicative of rape or sexual assault and tally the incidents. This method may not be perfect, but it’s the best they’ve come up with, and so far has garnered the most accurate results.
As for you trusting the women themselves, you seem to trust them very much when they agree with what you already think, but are very quick to dismiss them when they say something you don’t like. I believe you called it “confirmation bias?”
Which also means you will never agree with–or truly listen to–me, because I will never say anything you like either. As far as I can tell, too much of your identity is wrapped up in being right for you to ever truly change your mind. Be that as it may, you aren’t the only one reading this thread, and you aren’t really the person I’m talking to anyway.
My questions that you have not yet directly responded to at this point are:
* Is it more likely that nine million–or even 100,000–women are telling the absolute truth about their experiences, even if some of those truths are ones you don’t like, or that you, as one man who has not lived their experiences, still know more about them than all those women?
* Is it possible you are not truly listening to rape and sexual assault victims but instead are coming into the argument heavily biased?
And at this point I would also like to know the sources for your knowledge of rape, because you seem to be lacking quite a bit of it in several key areas. Can you cite sources for the conclusions you have that are 1) preferably scientific or at least sociological in nature from reputable researchers and 2) are backed by well respected sites/publications/people/etc.? I would love to know where you are drawing your knowledge from.
Abigail Hanley
April 19, 2014 @ 2:15 am
I would like to point out that blaming rape on victims, claiming that women are overreacting or misguided or crazy, and claiming that “boys will be boys” is a harmless mentality are not new ideas. They’re very old ideas. That’s why people who benefit from them, or who just don’t want to bother to actually listen to and respect the agency of rape victims, cling to them so tightly.
Enthusiastic consent, on the other hand, is a new idea. Acknowledging that rape is caused by rapists, and that *therefore* the way to prevent rape is to fight the elements in our culture that make rapists feel safe is a new idea.
I’m a relatively affluent middle aged woman who went to a top tier school. I know eight women who’ve been sexually assaulted, and seven (with some overlap because the two often coexist) who have experienced domestic violence. I’m one of them. In both cases.
I’ve personally watched that affluent, liberal, geeky social circle push out women who had the gall to speak out against their abusers. I’ve been treated like talking about being raped is worse than rape, I’ve had people be more concerned with my ex-husband’s social welfare than his criminal behavior. I’ve had people treat me like I magically manifested the rape and abuse by talking about them, as though they were not actions that he took, choices that he made. I was openly criticized for supporting my friends when they did so.
What is this, this desire to support the predators at the expense of the victims, other than a cultural attitude of apologism against crimes against women? I didn’t invent these women’s stories, but they’r remarkably alike, and they reflect and are supported by a prodigious body of statistics.
You have never been a woman, nor do you have an advanced degree in social work or feminist theory. Why exactly are you qualified to comment on this, and why on earth should your ideas be taken more seriously than those of women who have lived through these experiences?
Zeborah
April 19, 2014 @ 3:42 am
You assume the great majority of women won’t report rape. I do not.
I didn’t report the time someone tried to rape me. There were a number of reasons: I was in a foreign country with a poor grasp of the language; I didn’t know how to contact the authorities; I couldn’t remember what my assailant looked like and therefore whether or not I would be reporting the assault to the assailant himself; and most importantly, the event did such a number on my head that I spent a number of months thinking “Well, maybe it was all a misunderstanding” before I finally remembered the one key piece of evidence that proved there was no doubt of malice aforethought.
A few years before that, back in my own country where I was more confident, I did report a sexual offense against me. The police were very nice and very helpfully told me how I should have put myself in further danger in order to scare the guy off. Recently, in light of a national scandal about police disregarding rape complaints, I made a request to find out what if any investigation they’d done into my complaint. (I gave them enough information at the time that they could have, for example, sent someone to a place to see if DNA evidence could be retrieved.) It turns out they don’t even have a *record* of my complaint.
If I were raped today, would I bother reporting it? I think so, albeit wearily and with great scepticism. But I don’t blame the many many women who I know have chosen not to, and I especially don’t believe that they *don’t exist*.
tigs
April 19, 2014 @ 6:18 am
Perhaps these numbers can also be of use:
http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
The thing that jumps out for me in light of this particular discussion:
“In the United States, 83 per cent of girls aged 12 to 16 have experienced some form of sexual harassment in public schools”
If that isn’t a scary number that points to a widespread cultural issue, I honestly don’t know what is.
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 19, 2014 @ 8:05 am
March 3 2014 at 7:52 AM:
Matt Doyle: “Will, as someone who’s participated in arguments with you for near to a decade now, sometimes on your side of the argument and sometimes opposing it… I’ve seen you thank people for giving you food for thought. I don’t recall ever seeing any argument or evidence shift your positions.”
March 3 2014 at 7:58 AM:
Will Shetterly: “Matt, you may be right. I’m trying to embrace my likely aspieness, which includes recognizing that my mental quirks may simply prevent me from understanding some things.”
I have also never seen Will admit that he was wrong, change his mind, or in fact shift any position beyond his initial stated one.
I logged this remark as a reminder that arguing with Will is a pointless exercise if your goal is to persuade him. He is a fundamentally un-persuadable person. He’s a smart person and if you can keep calm as he picks and pokes at your argument, your arguments will get stronger. That’s not a worthless trait as learning how to batter your arguments against the walls of Will’s mind has helped me make my cases more airtight. But if you go into an argument with will trying to persuade him of something, in which your happiness with the conversation depends on him being persuaded, you will not walk away happy.
I just feel that people in this thread ought to know this if they don’t already.
I wish I had logged the comment when Will told me that there was no such thing as white male privilege because he had bad teeth.
Jessica
April 19, 2014 @ 8:29 am
Would you like to know why it is EXACTLY true that many people (not just women, not to open that can of worms with someone so ill-informed) would not and have not reported their assault experiences?
In my case, and the cases of many survivors that I have encountered, it was because of the victim-blaming humiliation we risk coming forward, perpetuated by…the rape culture in which we currently live!
When I brought a friend to the hospital after she had been assaulted by her boyfriend in her sleep (and yes, you can be assaulted by someone with whom you have previously had sex, stop me if that confuses you) she was asked by no fewer than five people if she had been drinking before they finally contacted the police. I cannot explain to you how demeanining, demoralizing, and jarring that is for someone who has undergone such trauma–to have complete strangers in whom you have placed immeasurable trust issue thinly-veiled tongue clicks and dubious glances, because you were probably just asking for it, regretting it now, and really who would date a rapist anyway? We only call the police for “legitimate rape” around here.
Please don’t try to tell me that these first and secondhand experiences are irrelevant because SURELY they don’t happen frequently enough to count. That would only serve to legitimize the points made above regarding your utter refusal to listen to the survivors that your patronizing rhetoric addresses.
I have no idea what your experience with rape is. I wouldn’t wish it on a single person, but I would hope that the insensitivity and audacity with which you treat the subject stems from personal experience. That, at least, would explain your skewed bias.
Don’t tell me that we don’t live in a rape culture. I have experienced it firsthand, as have so many here that are trying in vain to educate you with their own stories. It’s not that the rape happened, it’s that we were burdened with the blame and shame afterwards, and our assailants somehow became the victims. Those poor boys had such bright futures, you know? We ruined their lives by coming forward. We probably led them on, or were drinking. Our eyes and clothes were clearly saying yes, how could they be blamed for being confused when our mouths said no? Maybe if we had just said yes in the first place none of this would have happened.
Will Shetterly
April 19, 2014 @ 9:03 am
Nor do I believe they don’t exist—I didn’t say that. Every case is unique.
Will Shetterly
April 19, 2014 @ 9:11 am
I owe you an apology. I did some more reading, and I accept the 85% unreported figure. Lisak uses it here: http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf
And I further apologize for rejecting the 1 in 6 calculation. For years, the argument was 1 in 4, and I confused the debunking of 1 in 4 with the criticism of 1 in 6. My bad.
However, like Lisak and RAINN, I continue to think predators are the problem, and focusing on them is the solution.
Zeborah
April 19, 2014 @ 9:13 am
“Every case is unique” is a great way of avoiding the fact that putting all the cases together a clear pattern forms. Every snowflake is unique, but when they all stick on the ground together it looks much the same as last time snow fell, and the time before that, and the time before that. It’s a well-documented and thoroughly explained fact that the majority of rape is not officially reported.
Will Shetterly
April 19, 2014 @ 9:21 am
Alas, I have no way to prove this, but I’m amused by your comment about admitting I’m wrong. I just told Kat I was wrong, then, maybe a minute later, read your comment.
And, yes, I do wish you had logged any comment about me saying there’s no such thing as white male privilege, because I’ve never said that. Of course there are advantages to being white and male. What I have said is that wealth privilege trumps identity privilege. If you’ve never had to have a tooth pulled because you couldn’t afford a crown, you may find that hard to believe, but really, there’s more privilege in being Herman Cain’s daughter than there is in being the male child of any of the 2/3rds of the US poor who are white.
As for whether your cases are more airtight, I’m sure the people who share your beliefs will agree that’s so.
Jim C. Hines
April 19, 2014 @ 9:48 am
Will,
I’m glad you’re starting to recognize that some of your assumptions are mistaken.
What I suspect you don’t realize is that your arguments here — the way you’re treating the whole thing as an intellectual exercise, your dismissal of people’s lived experiences, your insistence that you know the best way to reduce rape despite people telling you why your suggestions would not have worked, and more — is hurtful.
You are hurting people. You are minimizing their trauma and their pain. Nowhere in your responses have I seen the slightest bit of empathy for survivors of rape.
When I got up this morning, I found multiple messages from people stating that your comments here had left them trembling or in tears. I doubt you set out to hurt people, but at this point I don’t particularly care about your intention. I care about the effects of your actions on my readers.
You’re done here.
You can use this to go off and start another argument about “censorship” if you choose. Or you can step back and try to understand why your comments here have been so hurtful. Why what probably seems like an intellectual debate to you actually rips open deep wounds for people who have lived through the experience you’re trying to to lecture them about.
You’ve already begun to realize that some of your information and assumptions are wrong. I truly hope you’ll continue that self-examination. But in the meantime, your participation in this conversation is over.
Lenora Rose
April 19, 2014 @ 9:49 am
Regardless of the exact number of A WHOLE LOT OF WOMEN, can you answer the actual question instead of nitpicking the statistics?
Jim C. Hines
April 19, 2014 @ 9:53 am
For anyone who wants to continue talking to Will, I’d ask that you please do so on his blog post. Thanks.
Deborah Blake
April 19, 2014 @ 10:57 am
Kat, I love you too. I couldn’t have said it better.
Deborah Blake
April 19, 2014 @ 11:08 am
Thank you, Jim. (Not just for responding to your readers’ comments, either.) I am proud to know someone who fights this fight as you do. And I think the argument about numbers is absurd. Here’s a number–one. One woman raped is too many. One man, one child, one anyone. ONE. And until that is the number we are dealing with, I hope you will continue to raise awareness and take the side of those of us who were that one.
Amy C
April 19, 2014 @ 11:16 am
Libby Anne at Love Joy Feminism writes extensively about her efforts at positive parenting, which focuses on teaching and modeling empathy and conflict resolution. You can find it here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/
Deby Fredericks
April 19, 2014 @ 12:25 pm
I can’t add anything that hasn’t already been said better, but thanks, Jim. I have had this conversation with my teenaged son about what constitutes consent and the responsibility of bystanders, and plan to have a similar conversation with my teenaged daughter soon. Because the last thing any parent should do is sweep a despicable crime under the rug.
M
April 19, 2014 @ 12:51 pm
It’s on Metafilter: metafilter.com/81636/Whats-wrong-with-antiracism#2564467
M
April 19, 2014 @ 12:52 pm
Apologies, Jim, I hadn’t seen this before posting my link. Thank you for an outstanding post.
M
April 19, 2014 @ 12:55 pm
I’ve seen your comments here and at Scalzi’s, and they are always thoughtful, informative and very well-written. Thank you so much for obviously putting a lot of time and effort into writing them.
Jim C. Hines
April 19, 2014 @ 12:57 pm
No worries.
M
April 19, 2014 @ 1:12 pm
That is such a good question. I haven’t seen anything about the reasoning behind it either.
KatG
April 19, 2014 @ 4:34 pm
Kat was quite brave. The technique Shetterly uses is quite common — it’s a scattershot. Imply that a statement invalidates facts. Imply that those who still assert facts are acting on unquestioning belief and are thus unreliable sources. When presented with additional facts, claim both the facts and sources for them are unreliable and disputed. When presented with additional support of the facts, either divert to a different angle or, as Shetterly did, apologize for objecting to the facts and try to make new claims that other related facts are wrong.
RAINN made the statement it did because legal defenses of rapists in court are now sometimes using a “the accused didn’t know it was wrong because society said it was okay” line in many cases, particularly with young men at universities and high schools. It’s part of the defense concept that the accused was confused rather than intending to rape or sexually assault. Predatory and rape culture concepts are not at all in opposition to each other. The rape culture is the social system in which the predator operates and can operate effectively with less chance of exposure, condemnation and arrest. The assertion that rape culture makes the predator less responsible for the assault, that is now sometimes being used in the courts by the defense, is just another facet of rape culture.
One of the things that my daughter and I increasingly notice is in watching t.v. and movies the still steady prevalence of forced kissing over mutual kissing. Forced kissing is when one person grabs the other and plants one without consent, as opposed to a more mutual kiss where both people lean in or one person asks for a kiss and then both lean in. Forced kissing is still seen as passionate and romantic and so still used a lot, although we’re beginning to see more mutual kissing, and it is usually still, if an opposite sex duo, the man who grabs the woman. That idea — that it’s romantic to grab someone and force a kiss on them — is a tiny but persuasive and pervasive bit of rape culture, of imagery that a person should be okay with you forcibly kissing him or her. And it’s really rather awkward to watch at this point in modern medium.
All of these cultural ideas reinforce things like women being uncertain if what was forced on them was actually an assault or not because the situation was initially romantic or with a regular partner or date, guys claiming they were given signals, police asking a victim if she or he is drunk or telling women to watch what they wear even though statistically clothing has no effect on rape rates, etc. It builds an idea of things that “aren’t that bad” or “just being flirty” — because the culture does actually present and teach that forced sexual interactions, from kissing on down, are romantic, acceptable, a male right, etc. So victims are treated in the society as people who have had a bad romantic experience rather than have actually been attacked. But cultural influence does not force predators to do those attacks. The decision to do so rests with the individual who commits the act.
M
April 19, 2014 @ 5:08 pm
‘RAINN made the statement it did because legal defenses of rapists in court are now sometimes using a “the accused didn’t know it was wrong because society said it was okay” line in many cases, particularly with young men at universities and high schools.’
That is really interesting. Do you have any references for that? (I really am not trying to ‘gotcha’ or anything, I just find that sort of fascinating, in a grim way.)
HelenS
April 19, 2014 @ 8:40 pm
Oo. That makes a LOT of sense. Thank you. I too would like to hear more.
CF
April 19, 2014 @ 10:56 pm
Aw crud, I’m sorry for being unclear! I meant it as a reply to the original post and to communicate that you, Mr. Hines, wrote an awesome post that served as a strong rebuttal while remaining calm and free of personal attacks, and I just wanted to say so, though apparently I should probably allow myself to babble next time rather than trying to be pithy. Absolutely no sarcasm was implied.
KatG
April 20, 2014 @ 2:26 am
It was used somewhat in the Stubenville case. It was used in a case in Australia with an Iranian taxi driver who raped an unconscious passenger, that he didn’t know it was rape because of his native culture. It came up in the Torrington, Ohio case, though I’m not sure whether the lawyers actually used it. I think RAINN is concerned that it’s going to become more common as a way to at least reduce charges. There’s also the approach that men in groups, drunk, egg each other into rape (rape culture,) and that this should mitigate responsibility of a rapist and reduce charges.
I don’t know if RAINN is entirely right about this, but since their report was about education efforts, it would definitely be an issue to look at. Their stance, however, did not at all contradict the idea — and evidence — of rape culture existing. Rape culture does not promote the idea that all men are rapists. It points out that in the culture, women are treated as sexual objects who don’t necessarily have to give consent to sexual acts and supports the idea that women should be pursued for sex and that rape involves a very limited type of interaction and situation, and that when it happens, that it is the victim’s fault unless it is a stranger attacking, and maybe even then. Not everybody in the culture will follow that belief, but many do as part of the culture and those ideas are often reinforced by law enforcement and communities. People believe that statutory rape is legal, that digital rape isn’t rape, that an incapacitated woman or man can give consent, that a woman or even a man out late at night is at fault for rape, etc. All these beliefs come from what they are taught in the culture, especially younger people. When a rapist decides to act on those beliefs, it is the responsibility of the rapist, but the culture often supports the rapist in being exonerated of the act.
Right now in universities, there’s been a growing problem with things like rape chants and frat instructions on how to prey on women, and other harassments that students involved in them don’t entirely understand are problematic and serious, because they don’t consider joking about doing rapes to be threatening, or again, forcing sex on someone drunk to be actual rape. That doesn’t mean that all those kids will be rapists. But it does build an environment favorable to the kids who do decide to rape and to declare such assaults just party behavior.
David M. Perry (@Lollardfish)
April 20, 2014 @ 3:01 am
That’s by far the best explanation of what RAINN was after. I’ll dig into it but would also appreciate any references you have. Thank you, KatG
Jim C. Hines
April 20, 2014 @ 9:11 am
No worries, and thanks for clarifying 🙂
M
April 20, 2014 @ 11:26 am
Wow, that is really interesting (and awful). Thanks for elaborating.
HelenS
April 20, 2014 @ 3:38 pm
So the rape culture that exonerates rapists is turned into — another way to exonerate rapists. And that’s a reason we should stop talking in terms of rape culture.
…yeah, no.
Tasha Turner
April 20, 2014 @ 4:50 pm
It’s crazy isn’t it?
Nick
April 21, 2014 @ 2:34 am
Jim,
I’ve gotta say, that since I accidentally found your work through a friend’s Facebook feed, I’ve been very impressed with your willingness to give credit where it’s really due, and have conversations that focus on actual justice. And, to tell someone who doesn’t seem to understand that words have real, actual effects, that they need to take a hike.
I taught undergraduate sociology for three years, and I always had students who dealt with sexual assault, abuse, and rape. (Anyone who’s surprised by that hasn’t been paying attention, yeah?) I once had a student who (after explaining why it is crucial that we have conversations about those who actually perpetrate the awful sh*t, by and large men in our society, and not leave it to women and girls, by and large the most frequent humans who are targeted and affected, to prevent said awful things) asked me why I would want to disempower women. I was a bit surprised, but I felt like it was another conversation we should be having in a sociology class. I asked her to talk more about what she meant and she did; she was a survivor, and felt that she had found a sense of power in accepting responsibility for what had happened to her. My response at the time, was that I was in no way interested in taking from women any power they feel they have, or are interested in retaining or obtaining; my interest was in having the conversation about how preventing rape and sexual assault is about shifting our cultural values regarding masculinity, which is a conversation we almost never have on a broad scale. Our first questions to people who say they have been assaulted or raped almost always investigate their own selves: were you drinking, were you wearing clothes or not or some clothes that ‘make one look like they want it’, were you winking…obviously the crowd here will probably find that absurd but true. Self protection should be a conversation; my point was that self protection shouldn’t be THE conversation. It ended up being a great talk, and that student was a wonderfully outspoken and intelligent student, who I wish i was still in touch with. I imagine she’s putting her mind to great use. But I think this illustrates the effects of rape culture relatively clearly: even those who have survived, often unintentionally and subconsciously adapt to our culture’s twisted sexual and gendered values, implying that women are responsible for their own sexual assaults and rapes. And I do not hold to that.
Still reading, still impressed. Thanks for doing what you do.
Nick
April 21, 2014 @ 2:40 am
*Hearty one-person applause* Responsible and awesome parenting move for the win.
Grace Alexander
April 21, 2014 @ 10:11 am
Kat:
YESYESYESYES.
And thank you.
~GA
Laura Resnick
April 21, 2014 @ 9:18 pm
I agree completely about the insidious effect of rape culture being the unconscious adoption, even in someone who knows better or resists it, of self-searching for ways in which she was responsible for her own rape.
But I also think that human nature comes into play there (or animal nature, since there are numerous studies in which animals attempt to control their own fates through ransom acts). Gamblers try to figure out what they did that ensured they did or did not win their bet, including absurdly random things like what color they wore when they placed the bet, or what they ate or did not eat, or at what exact spot they placed the bet, etc. People (I’m one of them) often say, only half-jokingly, that they’re responsible for the unexpected rain because they forgot to bring along their umbrellas, or they’re responsible for the sunshine ebcause they remembered to bring their rain gear.
So when something as horrific as rape occurs, I think one of the natural, human reactions to that completely loss of control over one’s life and body during that assault is to try to find some way to control one’s fate by figuring out what one did “wrong” and can do differently next time. If I never again “wear red,” or “drink sangria,” or “smile at a stranger,” or “wear stockings,” or “use the stairwell,” or “take a bus,” or “open the front door,” or “go to a party,” or “make eye contact,” or “show cleavage,” or “carry my own luggage to the car,” etc., etc.–whatever mundane details were part of the victim’s life at the moment of the assault–if I NEVER AGAIN do/wear/say that… Can I prevent another rape? Can I be sure I’ll never be raped again? Can I take CONTROL of that complete less of control I experienced?
Nick
April 21, 2014 @ 9:40 pm
A necessary question: is it a natural reaction to blame oneself for terrible things happening to us? I think that question, to be answered, would have to take into account cultural training, cultural values and norms, and larger patterns. I think that the guilt that survivors feel is often the result of culturally induced shame regarding not just sex and sexuality, but also retention of control over one’s own body; this is in a culture that often completely objectifies women and women’s bodies and shapes. So, I think you’re absolutely right that we as people would search for ways to reassure ourselves that we won’t be hurt in the same way again. I also think that victimization of these kinds, by and large perpetrated by people who the survivor knows, cannot necessarily be avoided by those planned avoidances or changing clothing styles, yeah? We would need to shift the cultural value system regarding what it means to be male and sexually active, and engaged as a sexual partner, instead of hunting for our next sexual experience. But I see what you mean, and that’s a process of healing that I think survivors understand far better than I ever will.
Alan Wexelblat
April 22, 2014 @ 11:26 am
Not that you don’t have anything better to do, but the current style seems to have a hard width limit, which is making these deep reply sequences very hard to read. I have a normal browser window on a standard monitor, but what I get is one very long and very narrow column of text. Is there any way to turn that hard limit into a % limit or something? TIA.
Alan Wexelblat
April 22, 2014 @ 11:29 am
My sense is that they were trying to do what the report says – give advice to the White House. That necessarily tends to be big, broad-stroke, and almost always oversimplified. This isn’t a scientific review; it’s policy proposals. The idea (or maybe the hope) is that the Administration will set high-level directions that would then get translated into actual on-the-ground policy by various Executive agencies such as the DOJ, CDC, etc. I’ve never written such an advisory myself, but I know people who have and it’s always been a balancing act.
pduggie
April 22, 2014 @ 11:49 am
Interesting. Its actually the case in rape statistics that some women who, when asked on surveys if what happened to them was ‘rape’ say it was not, when what they describe as having happened actually meets the definition of rape.
Jim C. Hines
April 22, 2014 @ 1:49 pm
Alan,
The easiest options would be to reduce how deeply threaded the replies can get, or to do away with the threaded responses altogether.
I’m actually thinking seriously about the second option. It seems to work for Scalzi, Making Light, etc.