Final Thoughts on Petitiongate
I haven’t been shy about sharing my opinion on a certain petition that’s been causing some internet uproar. At the same time, it’s a fact that some intelligent people, some of whom I respect, signed the thing. (As did some people I don’t respect, and don’t consider particularly intelligent, but that’s the way it goes with just about any group.)
A part of me really wants to be done with this conversation. But I also want to understand why these people would sign something that, to me, is such blatant over-the-top fear-mongering and dog-whistling, with bonus helpings of rewritten history. I’ve spent some time trying to find people’s reasoning in their own words. I’m quoting them not because I want to point fingers or attack anyone, but to try to understand, and to process my own responses to their statements.
If I’ve misrepresented anyone’s views with these quotes, please let me know so I can make the appropriate corrections.
This is a very long post about a topic that’s already been beaten to death and brought back in zombie form and strung up as the world’s most gruesome pinata, so I totally understand and respect anyone who chooses not to wade through another round. Have some emergency kittens instead.
Paul Levinson: [O]f course this is not literally a First Amendment issue, since there’s no Congressional or local state (unconstitutional via the 14th Amendment) censorship. But it is in effect a First Amendment issue, because it would result in censorship, and therefore is inconsistent with the spirit of the First Amendment, in the same way, as say, CBS’s censorship of language at the Grammys.
Fair enough. I’ve given people crap in the past about not understanding the First Amendment. I still think it’s counterproductive to bring it up in this kind of conversation, but I can accept that signers didn’t literally think SFWA was in danger of violating the U.S. Bill of Rights. The issue is censorship.
So the question becomes, can what was proposed in the job posting for Bulletin Editor properly be called censorship?
Levinson (cont): Editors, individually or in concert, indeed engage in decisions about what to publish and what not, what to solicit as content in articles, all the time. But that doesn’t smack of censorship, and the violation of the First Amendment in spirit … which a board expressly created and convened for the sole purpose of judging whether an article meets certain linguistic etc standards does. At least, does to me, which is why I signed the petition…
I strongly object to the creation of an advisory board whose sole purpose would be to determine if the editor’s choices pass some sort of linguistic or moral muster.
If I’m understanding correctly, Levinson’s fear is that a board will be convened solely to judge linguistic and moral standards. That would be troubling to me as well, if it happened.
The job description said the editor will, “Participate in [the] proofing and review process with select volunteer and board members.” It also stated that the editor should solicit cover art and articles that fit within SFWA’s standards and vision.
To me, it’s a huge leap from that posted description to the fear of a Morality Board of Censorship. I’m guessing some of those fears come from different perspectives on what happened last year that led to the suspension of the Bulletin. Some saw what happened as an editor and two respected writers being mobbed out of their jobs by a vocal minority over a pulp cover and using the phrase “lady editor” in a column. If you subscribe to that view, and if you assume that this review process would be a continuation of that “mob,” then I suppose this fear would make sense.
I don’t want to rehash last year’s battles. But as someone who was in that last issue writing about this stuff, I will say that a lot of the characterization of what happened last year has been grossly oversimplified and distorted. What happened was the result of a series of (in my opinion) poor choices by the editor, authors, and the then-President of SFWA. (I’ll note that I like some of these people and consider them friends, but I still think they dropped the ball here.)
Robert Silverberg: Many veteran members of SFWA objected to the early text and have worked it over to keep it to the point that pre-censorship of published material is an Orwellian injury to free speech, period.
…One would hope that readers of SFWA’s magazine would not take offense at anything they read in a publication that is intended to help them in the pursuit of their professional careers, but the appropriate way of objecting to such offensive material would be to write a letter of protest to the magazine, not to force the editor to be overruled in advance by a committee that determines what might be deemed offensive.
If I’m reading this right, the fear here is similar to Levinson’s, that the Bulletin’s content would be restricted based on standards of “offensiveness.” Again, this is not what the job description said, and I assume the fear comes from a continuation of last year.
It feels like there’s been some conflation of “professional” with “unoffensive.” For example, consider a random scantily clad heroine on a cover. Is that offensive? Maybe, maybe not. But is it professional?
That depends on where it’s being published. The pin-up sensibilities of one of Seanan McGuire’s recent book covers was totally appropriate for that book. The same kind of artwork as the cover for the professional publication of a writers’ organization? Almost certainly unprofessional and inappropriate for that publication.
I agree with Silverberg that this magazine should be helpful to us as writers in pursuit of our professional careers. As such, isn’t material that’s not relevant to our careers, and/or is actively damaging (by diminishing or belittling other professional writers) inappropriate for the magazine?
Silverberg also mentioned letters to the magazine, and I agree with him that letters to the Bulletin are a good way for us to yell at each other. I also think the standards of what we publish in a letters column are different than the standards we should be using for paid articles in the Bulletin. If someone wants to write a letter decrying the fact that Jim C. Hines is OMG THE WORST THING EVER TO HAPPEN TO SF/F, that’s one thing. But the moment the Bulletin is paying someone to chew me out…? That’s a whole different story.
David Gerrold: I signed the petition for the same reason I wanted to strangle the little old lady in the brown dress who used to write memos on what we could say and do in a Star Trek script because NBC had “standards.”
I believe that that an authors’ publication should cherish freedom of speech. I also believe that freedom of speech is also the responsibility to speak well and wisely. I believe that each of us is entitled to embarrass ourselves in public as well.
And in addition to the above, I believe that freedom of speech is not a freedom from consequences and everyone else also should also have the same freedom to respond.
…The issue is that the mechanism for making sure that the Bulletin is more “inclusive” is setting off alarm bells, because of the possibility that mechanism could someday be abused — used to restrict what’s published in the bulletin.
I believe that if we truly respect each other as authors and editors that we should respect the independence of the SFWA editor to actually edit the damn thing — and respect the independence of the people whose work is published in it as well.
Not having worked in television, I don’t know what Gerrold experienced at NBC, but if he’s had previous experiences of feeling censored as a writer, I can understand how he’d be sensitive to anything that looks like it could lead to the same situation. But again, this isn’t an area where I have first-hand experience.
But Gerrold makes the same assumption here that the mechanism being described is about making the Bulletin “inclusive.” While I think inclusiveness is a good goal, and one that SFWA and SF/F in general need to work a hell of a lot harder at, that’s not what was written in the job posting.
I agree with Gerrold on freedom and responsibility for speech, and that free speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences.
And yes, working with volunteers and Board members could theoretically evolve into a situation where a group was refusing to publish articles by This Group or That Group or whatever. As authors, we’re good at imagining “What if…” and taking it both to plausible and completely absurd conclusions.
The thing is, the setup we’ve had all along, with the President overseeing the Bulletin and the editor, could just as easily be taken along a hypothetical path of Good Intentions to those conclusions. So could an unsupervised editor, for that matter. I don’t see it as remotely likely, and more importantly, I don’t see anything in this job posting to explain why this fear has suddenly become such an urgent matter.
Gregory Benford quotes James L. Cambias: “I think it all comes down to “who decides?” Naturally, nobody wants the Bulletin to be gratuitously offensive to its readers — but what a number of people, myself included, are afraid of is that “offensiveness” will be used as a club to bash dissenting voices. This is not a purely theoretical concern, either. I would much rather have a single editor, who is personally responsible for the magazine’s content, than some nebulous, anonymous “advisory committee” enforcing their ideas of what is or isn’t offensive. At best it will result in a magazine that’s dull and unadventurous. At worst it will continue the ideological winnowing of SFWA.”
Again, I assume “not a purely theoretical concern” refers to last year’s mess. And okay, you’d prefer a single editor with power over a committee. For a lot of things, so would I. I’ve worked on committee-style writing in my day job, and it’s painful. Excruciating, at times.
But once again, there’s a chain of assumptions here to get from the posted job description to a “nebulous, anonymous ‘advisory committee'” controlling the Bulletin along ideological lines based on what is or isn’t offensive.
And nobody, as far as I can tell, bothered to ask. Nobody contacted the Board to find out what was meant by that bullet point stating that the editor will, “[p]articipate in proofing and review process with select volunteer and board members.”
ETA: It was pointed out, correctly, that Truesdale did email Steven Gould about that bullet point, asking who the “overseer(s)” would be and how they would determine “appropriate” content for the Bulletin. Gould responded:
There will be no “informal” group overseeing the editor’s selection. There may be an advisory board, but that is yet to be determined. Under the structure of SFWA (both old and new bylaws), the president is responsible for publications … We don’t have guidelines for “acceptable” articles, art, and ads other than content needs to serve the needs of the organization. Chief among those are our 5 core mission areas: to inform, support, promote, defend and advocate for professional writers … However, when content alienates portions of our membership it is =not= meeting the needs of our members or our organization and this is part of the equation the editor will be considering that when they look at articles, illustrations, and ads.
To the best of my knowledge, there was no further inquiry by any of the signers, but that’s not the same as what I originally wrote here. My apologies for that mistake.
Amy Sterling Casil: I don’t want to see “chilling effects” – there should be an open dialog. I signed it on a pure first Amendment basis, which I requested be noted.
Depending on how you view Bulletingate, I suppose you could point to chilling effects. I know there are people who have assumed the complaints were a vocal minority of thin-skinned, overreacting individuals looking for offense. If you believe that, then yes, it would be consistent to develop a fear that you could be targeted next for the slightest offense.
And here’s where I run up against a wall. Because that’s so completely different from what I saw happen last year. I saw the SFWA Bulletin publish a series of unprofessional (and yes, at times offensive) material, including a poor choice of cover art, multiple articles that — perhaps unintentionally — referred to women in demeaning ways, and a follow-up article accusing critics of being “liberal fascists,” with comparisons to Stalin and Mao, along with references to “thought control.” An article the authors were paid for, in part from my dues.
If you feel that these were appropriate for a professional writers’ organization’s publication, that’s one thing. I would disagree very strongly, but I would understand a bit better where you’re coming from.
But nobody was fired over poor word choice. Nobody was fired over a single cover. Heck, I don’t know that anyone was fired, period. The editor chose to resign (though you could argue she was pushed into it — I don’t know what went on behind the scenes … and neither to most of the other people talking about it), and while I assume the Resnick/Malzberg column is gone, I don’t know the details there.
I don’t know how to wrap this up. I trust that the people who signed that thing believed they had a real and valid basis for their fears of what might happen, but I’m not seeing it. Sure, there are individuals on every side of every spectrum who can be jerks. But I don’t see anything to suggest that people would be banned from publishing in the Bulletin for being a jerk. They might be instructed to keep their paid article on-topic and save the jerkishness for their blog, but that’s a matter of professionalism. I wouldn’t expect the Bulletin to pay me for a 3000-word chat about the awesome LEGO tower I built with my kids, either. Not because SFWA is censoring LEGO-related content, but because it just doesn’t belong in our professional publication.
I believe the creator of that petition was deliberately trying to stir up shit, but I also believe the people who signed it genuinely felt it was an important and necessary stand to take for free speech and expression.
I believe that, but I still can’t bring myself to agree with it.
Fair warning: the comment-eating goblins are standing by if things get nasty or go off the rails.
Steven
February 14, 2014 @ 2:04 pm
“Silverberg also mentioned letters to the magazine, and I agree with him that letters to the Bulletin are a good way for us to yell at each other.”
I may be wrong, but I believe that traditionally, the Bulletin has not had a letter column. Letters, instead, were published in the Forum, which was entirely internal to SFWA. The idea being that we could debate and discuss our disagreements and grievances without airing our dirty laundry in public. Possibly a quaint view in light of modern social media.
Jim C. Hines
February 14, 2014 @ 2:21 pm
Good point. I remember the letters arguing in the Forum, but nothing like that in the Bulletin. I might be misunderstanding what Silverberg was suggesting there, I’m not sure.
I’d probably make the same general argument though, that the editorial standards for letters from the membership in the Forum is very different from that of paid articles for the Bulletin.
a friday of followups | Crime and the Blog of Evil
February 14, 2014 @ 2:26 pm
[…] Jim Hines just posted what he hopes is his wrap-up piece on this mess. He tries to explain what the people signing it had to have thought. I cannot get there from here; […]
Muccamukk
February 14, 2014 @ 2:37 pm
Speaking of chilling effects, I’ve seen a number of qualified professional authors say in this blog and others something along the lines of, “If SFWA is going to behave this unprofessionally, I have no interest in being a member.” Most of those people are women. Is that not also a chilling effect.
There’s been a great deal of discussion about what “free speech” means in relation to women getting harassed in online spaces (especially twitter). The harassers say that they have free speech and can say what they like (not always true depending on the country they’re in, but that’s another matter), but in the act of making a space unsafe for women and minorities, they them selves are making their opponents less free to speak. If the cost of speaking is getting yelled at and called names (especially women who are often threatened with sexual violence), then many will tally the cost of speaking and rate it too high to bother.
Whereas, someone can write a sexist, racist screed, call it a petition, and have highly respected authors rise to their defence.
Again, talk about a chilling effect.
Amy Sterling Casil
February 14, 2014 @ 2:37 pm
Hi Jim, thanks for the thoughtful, insightful commentary. Noting this: http://www.asterling.com/2014/02/rules-for-women-in-the-21st-century.html
you’ll see I cannot “unsign” the petition. In addition, my concern regarding “chilling effects” is as real as it ever was. I was working for a client on Twitter when I saw my feed fill with disrespectful, sometimes even childish comments regarding the petition. I have heard from many who do not want to rejoin or join SFWA at all due to the strident manner of discussion and seemingly endless controversies. I do know a great deal of the background of last year’s Bulletin controversy. Prior to that, while I was Treasurer, I did make one request, and only one, which was that the Bulletin be refreshed and revitalized – exactly as current plans have been announced. Needless to say, it took a while for the work to get done, as SFWA is an all-volunteer organization.
In the meantime, last year’s Bulletin controversy occurred. From my perspective, it was a disaster waiting to happen, as there had been few changes to the Bulletin and its writers and content in recent years, though these were essential to meet changing needs and interests of SF/F/H writing professionals. In my view, the took the appearance of being about gender bias, a valid concern, whereas there was certainly a great deal of content that could have improved the Bulletin for all members and this ought to have been the issue. I think this controversy also was fanned by some pretty negative behavior all-round. End result: a lot of people don’t feel welcome, do not feel SFWA benefits them, and feel like the only concern is political correctness surrounding gender bias and racism. Individuals like Vox Day managing to hijack various modes of discourse and people’s attention, seemingly for days and weeks on end …
As I told Mary, I think a healing needs to occur. I’m not playing these games any longer, yet I am always willing to talk to others regarding professional matters, and in the few areas where I might be of aid to others, about personal matters as well.
VilcaRomba
February 14, 2014 @ 2:49 pm
Jim–
I think there’s one more thing that helps explain some of the comments by those who signed the petition. Gould’s first email back to Truesdale included this line:
“However, when content alienates portions of our membership it is =not= meeting the needs of our members or our organization…”
This, I think, is what is really concerning many of the petitioners. Many things can be interpreted to be ‘alienating portions’ of SFWA, including topics that are well within the legitimate purview of the SFWA Bulletin. The petitioners seem to be worried that this line of argument will be used to censor not just blatantly offensive comments (several of the signatories have said that they of course don’t want things like that in the Bulletin, and they even rejected Ted Beale’s support), but viewpoints or authors that–while legitimate–have been judged to be offensive or alienating by the new board.
As a few examples:
* Some people object to supporting content by offensive authors even if the particular content being purchased is inoffensive. Witness, for instance, people boycotting the Superman storyline that was going to be done by Orson Scott Card, not because the storyline would be offensive but because Card was writing it. Would it be ‘alienating’ portions of the readership to buy an otherwise-inoffensive article by Card? What about one by Robert Silverberg, who signed the first petition? Or Linda Addison, who signed the second, less offensive one? Gould’s comment leaves open the possibility that the answer to these questions is ‘yes’, and that such authors may well be blacklisted from the Bulletin to avoid alienating others. (It’s worth noting here that a small-press publisher, Steven Saus, said in the 4th comment on Natalie’s post that he would indeed be blacklisting any of the signatories from publishing with him.)
* Some topics in the SFWA community are very polarizing. Some fans of traditional publishing, for instance, get upset if self publishing is recommended, because they hate the very idea; some self publishing fans are the same way. Would an article discussing good ways to go about self-publishing be alienating to the traditional publishing gurus who think such a thing is ridiculous? If all the topics that might alienate or polarize someone are taken out, what’s left?
* Some works in genre fiction have been called offensive. Would an article that spoke positively, for instance, about the marketing and publishing of ‘Stranger in a Strange Land’ be alienating to the people who believe that book is sexist and should not be recommended for that reason? Would such an article about Clockwork Orange be alienating to someone who felt that the graphic content in the book was gratuitous and offensive? If one of the people who thinks Harry Potter is evil for promoting witchcraft somehow joins SFWA, would a positive article about the marketing juggernaut behind that book series alienate them?
You’re right that there’s no proof that this will definitely happen, but the comment Gould made is so vague that it can encompass the above situations. The problem, then, isn’t really that it’s specifically a board to censor such things–the petitioners would likely still be unhappy if it wasn’t a board but just an assistant editor, or if the editor position were expanded to include these things. The problem is that the guidelines aren’t clear as to what is ‘alienating’, or how many people must be ‘alienated’ and for what reason, before something becomes a problem. It opens the door to authors being excluded, or viewpoints being excluded, based on guidelines that aren’t known and could range from anything between “no nudity or slurs” to “nothing that any one of the 1760 SFWA members might object to in any way, for any reason, good or bad.”
I think this is why the proposed alternative is to drop the Board and have people who want to head off offensive content (or who saw something offensive that they don’t want repeated) write Letters to the Editor petitioning for specific guidelines. This allows for people who have specific requests (“don’t use this word or that word,” “don’t argue this point because it’s divisive”, etc.) to make their arguments before all of SFWA, which can then take up the issue, debate it, and vote as to whether or not it should be an explicit guideline. If after last year, SFWA had amended their Bulletin guidelines to include “No art with nearly-nude women, no references to ‘lady writers’, and calling SFWA members ‘fascists’ is right out,” then the message would be clear–these specific things are out, because they alienate people, but no blacklisting authors or refusing to discuss books that some people object to. Whereas with the situation now, we don’t know what the guidelines are, or even if they’ll be public.
This, I think, is why a lot of the petitioners signed the petition.
trinioler
February 14, 2014 @ 2:54 pm
The big issue is that even in the “clean” petition, its acted like the Letters should be open to anyone and anything anyone writes – regardless of content or professionalism, etc.
I highly disagree with providing A) an open platform like that in a *professional* publication, and B) the hijacking of a private platform for *anyone* to use/abuse.
Few magazines or newspapers publish every single letter they are sent. Trust me. Even working on a campus newspaper, we’d get a few letters that legitimately made us worry that someone would be okay. Once in three years of work, we got an actual threat, which we passed on to the police.
The specific text in the petition was very… dogmatic and well… coming from someone who is NOT A MEMBER OF THE SFWA, entitled.
Genevieve Williams
February 14, 2014 @ 3:06 pm
Speaking mostly as an interested observer, I’ve mentioned elsewhere that one thing that would really help would be a clearly stated and publicly accessible editorial policy for the Bulletin. Such a policy could, for instance, define what would be considered “alienating content”.
If one exists, I haven’t been able to find it.
Dara
February 14, 2014 @ 3:06 pm
David’s line here really gets right back to one of the most insanity-making things – to me, anyway – about all this. And, for that matter, a lot of politics right now. Anyway, you quote him as saying:
“I signed the petition for the same reason I wanted to strangle the little old lady in the brown dress who used to write memos on what we could say and do in a Star Trek script because NBC had ‘standards.'”
Honestly, what this makes me want to do is shake him and say, “I KNOW. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, IT IS NO LONGER 1966. PLEASE, I BEG YOU, START RESPONDING TO NOW, NOT 48 YEARS AGO.”
It drives me crazy how very many “futurists” and “speculative fiction” people on this list apparently haven’t given a good look-over at their opinions and reactions in, clearly, decades.
Veronica Schanoes
February 14, 2014 @ 3:06 pm
You know, the concern about not airing dirty laundry in public is one I have very little patience with. For one thing, it has long been used to silence women about misogyny, sexism, even abuse that they have suffered within their communities–don’t make us look bad, don’t air the dirty laundry–and all the time, nobody blames the misogynists, the sexists, the abusers, the harassers for smearing shit all over that laundry in the first place.
As far as I’m concerned, the cover was the dirty laundry. Lady editors’ appeal in swimsuits was the dirty laundry. Recommending that women in the profession should model themselves on Barbie was dirty laundry, and claiming that being called to account for these things is the equivalent of being targeted by Mao or Stalin was dirty laundry. VD’s noxious white supremacy and misogyny was dirty laundry.
If a significant number SFWA members had not vocally protested these things with all the outrage and anger they deserve, and if SFWA itself had not taken steps to address these problems, and if these things had not been done in public, with accountability, where we could all see them, that would have told me that SFWA as an organization and its members were happy with its shit-stained and had no intention of cleaning house, and thus that was not a house I had any interest in occupying.
What these arguments do is publicize the cleaning process. Without these public arguments, I would have had no interest in joining SFWA. As a result of this most recent dust-up, I finally sent in my application and dues. Because now it seems like SFWA is more interested in washing its laundry than hiding it.
Tracy Benton
February 14, 2014 @ 3:07 pm
“nobody bothered to ask”
In the version of the petition I read (http://radishreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Bulletin-petition3.pdf), Truesdale included his correspondence in which he did ask what that bullet point meant. The response was:
“There will be no “informal” group overseeing the editor’s selection. There may be an advisory board, but that is yet to be determined. Under the structure of SFWA (both old and new bylaws), the president is responsible for publications.
“We don’t have guidelines for “acceptable” articles, art, and ads other than content needs to serve the needs of the organization. Chief among those are our 5 core mission areas: to inform, support, promote, defend and advocate for professional
writers.”
Isn’t this asked and answered? I don’t know how they got from this answer to “A “review board” implies a group of persons, as yet unnamed, who can veto content submitted by members if the board deems it “offensive” to a sub-group of SFWA.”
I am not a writer. But I find the petition confusing, rambling, and vague. And I don’t think it’s a good idea to sign a petition because you agree with some of it. Just my 2 cents.
Jim C. Hines
February 14, 2014 @ 3:10 pm
Tracy – Good point, thank you. Dave’s emails, to me, carried a great deal of snark and presumptuousness, but you’re right that he does ask some of these questions. I’ll edit this post to reflect that. Thanks!
C.A. Young
February 14, 2014 @ 3:18 pm
“…but what a number of people, myself included, are afraid of is that “offensiveness” will be used as a club to bash dissenting voices.”
As someone who belongs to multiple groups who experience this very thing on a relatively constant basis (queer, trans, Pagan), all I can think is that this is an overblown freak-out by people who have to share their privilege.
Like, hi. Can it possibly be more obvious?
And it’s so bizarre, because the job posting isn’t even remotely like what they’re describing. I feel like I’m watching a particularly partisan news channel going nuts about Things That Aren’t Really Happening, or faux controversies about debunked accusations.
There will need to be a lot of change in the org before I consider touching the SFWA with a ten meter cattle prod.
Veronica Schanoes
February 14, 2014 @ 3:33 pm
As someone who belongs to multiple groups who experience this very thing on a relatively constant basis (queer, trans, Pagan), all I can think is that this is an overblown freak-out by people who have to share their privilege.
Exactly. In the past year, I have seen repeated instances of the Bulletin being used as a club to bash women. Why should I prioritize this paranoid fear of imaginary bashing over the actual bashing that is happening.
Veronica Schanoes
February 14, 2014 @ 3:43 pm
If after last year, SFWA had amended their Bulletin guidelines to include “No art with nearly-nude women, no references to ‘lady writers’, and calling SFWA members ‘fascists’ is right out,” then the message would be clear–these specific things are out, because they alienate people
This would not be satisfactory to me. It sounds like a surly teenager saying “Fine, I won’t say that particular word.”
I wanted a clear statement rejecting sexist tripe going out under the auspices of SFWA. Those specific things are not good enough. Having to articulate each expression of sexism after it has already happened is exactly what wears people down; it is exactly what makes it easier to walk away than to be part of a professional group. The organization needed to demonstrate that it was interested in not inflicting that sexism on its female members, in taking responsibility for the messages it’s sending.
Jim C. Hines
February 14, 2014 @ 3:45 pm
I can see that particular sentence in Gould’s response is too vague, yeah. How many people do we need to alienate and drive away before it counts as a significant portion? Does alienating Vox Day by letting non-white authors join SFWA count? Etc.
In the context of Gould’s emails, I took this as meaning we shouldn’t be publishing content that belittles, dismisses, mocks, and ultimately drives away certain groups by making them feel unwelcome and unwanted. Truesdale took it somewhat differently, as evidenced by his reply and references to fascism…
Obviously, neither of us know what’s going on in Gould’s brain. But he did stress that the only guidelines are, “to serve the needs of the organization. Chief among those are our 5 core mission areas: to inform, support, promote, defend and advocate for professional writers.”
There are no guidelines saying nothing can ever be published that might upset or offend people. The point is to keep the professional magazine of the SFWA focused on professional topics. As president of SFWA, it’s Gould’s job to make sure that happens, just as it has been for other presidents in the past.
Could his response have been clearer on that point? Definitely. But I don’t think it warrants the presumption of bad faith or leaping to the worst conceivable conclusions.
trinioler
February 14, 2014 @ 3:51 pm
I agree. Truesdale tries to ask, but precedes it with… I’ll be generous, a screed which would make anyone, least of all Gould, wonder “Okay, how can I possibly answer this without getting yelled at by a privileged libertarian?”
Liz Argall
February 14, 2014 @ 3:53 pm
Amy, if you believe healing needs to occur what led you to conclude that this petition was the best way to move forward healing? There are many ways for healing to occur, many ways to have voice, many ways to author a petition, white paper or comment. This petition did not seem like something that was designed to engender healing or respectful discourse.
Elizabeth R. McClellan (@popelizbet)
February 14, 2014 @ 4:01 pm
I continue to find myself unsatisfied, for a number of reasons, but one in particular.
The coversheet that, as I understand it, remained the same across both petitions, contained an assertion that SFWA was trying to repeal the First Amendment.
To any U.S. author with the ability to read, they went into the remainder with the knowledge that the presenters of the petition had used an outrageous and offensive claim designed solely to outrage the passions at the expense of rational thought. Knowing this, they continued through a petition that continued conflating the First Amendment’s prohibitions with a situation in which they categorically do not apply. And they signed their names to it anyway.
It seems to me that we are permitted to judge people by the words they lend their names to as much as their explanations after the decision becomes controversial. This is even more true when not signing the petition in no way prevents you from making your own statement that says what you mean, without deceptive and inflammatory rhetoric.
I appreciate what you’re doing, Mr. Hines. Attempting to understand each other is a road to peace. But until the signatories admit that it is at the very least an error in judgment to read a petition that is both offensive and deceptive, insist on the removal of the offensive bits, sign on to one no less deceptive, and then try to walk back what you put your name to when the heat comes down…without that, I’ve lost intellectual respect for those who signed who had my respect to start with. Not using the First Amendment to wrap yourself in the flag where it doesn’t apply is a serious peeve of mine; people who do so are intellectually dishonest and contribute to the degradation of the discourse.
Just as people can make their own decisions about whether an editor is correct to decide that people who have signed a particular document aren’t a good fit with a publication, I can decide whether to invest my resources in authors who claim to respect the First Amendment but see no problem in deceptively invoking it, and my decision is that I probably will not actively seek to do so. I’m sure in some people’s minds that equates to a blacklist. I don’t much give a damn.
Last round of SFWA commentary–this time | angelahighland.com
February 14, 2014 @ 4:09 pm
[…] Hines has a nice thoughtful post up trying to understand what motivated a lot of people to sign the thing in the first place. […]
Erika
February 14, 2014 @ 4:58 pm
I’m not a writer so I’m not sure I really have a place in this argument, so please feel free to delete if deemed inappropriate. As someone who has been watching what has been going on with all of this all I can say is the ones who wrote and signed the petition pretty much lost me when they invoked the First Amendment and claimed their First Amendment rights were in danger of being violated.
This lost me for two reasons, so far every time I’ve seen a group or individuals invoke their First Amendment privileges and say they are threatened is after they have said something racist, sexist, stupid or whatever horrible thing it was and they are now being criticized for it and don’t like it. So I pretty much associate First Amendment claims under these circumstances as whining and foot stamping over being held accountable for your own words and actions. How dare people criticize what I have to say!
And two, your First Amendment rights are NOT being infringed upon in any way, shape or form! The government is not stepping in and tell the SFWA to reign in their people or else! You can only print what we want. That is just not happening. And crying wolf and directly or indirectly saying it is both weakens your argument and runs the risk of weakening the legitimate First Amendment violation claims out there by making all claims look as weak and frivolous.
If you feel your origination is threatening you with censorship fine, state that and argue that but please leave the 1st Amendment out of it, it gets roughed up enough as it is.
Also, thank you for the emergency kitten blog link. It was not necessarily needed but very much appreciated and bookmarked for future emergencies as they arise.
Marie Dowd
February 14, 2014 @ 5:15 pm
I was so glad to see the both here and at Writer Beware alarm about the petition being trollish and too vague. Yeah, some people will object to the sun coming up in the east, just for laughs. So there will never be any objection-free publications.
But any policy that goes strictly by the numbers or absolutes, will be as unjust as a kid suspended for a gun shaped pizza slice. Guidelines leave the responsibility on the editor for implementation. Editors are responsible to a publisher or organization to serve their goals. I don’t even get why free speech is their plank here, I wouldn’t submit an article on bubble sorts to Men’s Fitness.
And while much fuss has been made over the cover, that doesn’t bother me at all, especially for an anniversary issue. I would like to beefcake as often as cheesecake, but the attitudes for a professional publication and ‘name’ subset are far more of a fundamental issue.
Jessica
February 14, 2014 @ 6:03 pm
Whenever I see someone claim that “complaints [come from] a vocal minority of thin-skinned, overreacting individuals looking for offense” as an excuse for their behaviour, I see an over-privileged intellectually lazy (usually)white cis dude who doesn’t want to think about other people’s feelings before he speaks. This petition is a very sleazy attempt at push-back for the SFWA’s attempts to learn from and grow better than the events of last year. Truesdale doesn’t want to be forced to consider other people’s reactions to what he says, and he’s throwing a tantrum. That much is patently obvious in the wording of both versions of the petition.
A huge portion of writing is “consider your audience”. What are you telling them and what do you want them to think about what you’re writing? This is especially important in a Professional Organisation’s in-house publications. The audience is the author’s fellow professionals. They are not in the audience to be entertained, they are not there to be outraged, they are not there to be condescended to. They are there to be informed. Trends of the industry, information of note to new writers, refresher updates for established writers, updates in technology which make getting your words in front of your audience easier, faster, more efficient, less expensive. That’s what a professional writers’ organisation should be concerning themselves with. The thought of alienating (or more) 50% of your readership ought to be enough to make the writer think, but as last year’s events proved, there are still many old, white cis dudes who find thinking about their audience’s potential reactions somewhat of a challenge and they respond to the prospect with all the charm and grace of a two year old confronted with bath time.
That much said, I have an extremely difficult time understanding why so many presumably intelligent, imaginative people chose to support this nonsense. As mentioned above in other comments, the petition is presented as a First Amendment issue, when it is obviously not. The inescapable conclusion is that all of these people have just stated in public that they cannot tell the difference between badly written fearmongering and a genuine First Amendment issue. Regardless of their own individual reasoning and motivations, this is what they’re telling the general public who reads the nonsense they’ve put their names to.
To me, that’s inexcusable.
I am unable to “separate the artist from the art”. I can not watch any of Roman Polanski’s nor Woody Allen’s films and not think of the children they raped. I cannot listen to Wagner without thinking of his virulent antisemitism. I cannot read anything by Orson Scott Card without knowing that he wants to make my existence illegal, and has spent a great many of the dollars his fans have paid him for his work in that effort. Similarly, I’ve lost a great deal of the respect I once had for the authors who put their names to Truesdale’s whining screed (and a larger portion of my wrath is reserved for those who signed the first version).
And just to forestall the inevitable, here’s an excellent quote from Angela Highland:
“If the first words out of your mouth are to cry ‘political correctness!’, … chances are very, very high that you are in fact part of the problem.”
Bruce Arthurs
February 14, 2014 @ 6:33 pm
Yes, it was the Forum that was the outlet for free-wheeling letters and discussion. When I first joined SFWA, in the late 1980’s, the Forum editor actually photocopied the original letters (occasionally scissoring out the most-obviously irrelevant sections)(Censorship!) for Forum publication.
This led to an unofficial but long-running Ugliest Letterhead Contest. I would personally say that the late F. Gwynplaine MacIntyre, whose ornate letterhead took up about a third of a page, was the clear winner.
Sally
February 14, 2014 @ 7:05 pm
Well, duh.
Oh noes, they might have to think about their own privilege and someone else’s POV for a change.
Please.
Sally
February 14, 2014 @ 7:09 pm
THIS.
jbwhelan
February 14, 2014 @ 9:13 pm
Worth pointing out, also, that some signatories obviously need a serious reminder of what an actual violation of the First Amendment looks like:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/21/opinion/brown-kicked-out-for-saying-vagina/
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 1:04 am
Jim, I very much appreciate your posting this. It articulates pretty much the conclusion I was coming to regarding most of the signatories. It’s baffling that they chose THIS as their boat to sail on, but, at least in some cases, I think they had good attentions.
Jayle Enn
February 15, 2014 @ 1:40 am
All of those responses gave me serious ‘dudes being defensive’ vibes, and Gerrold’s gave me precisely the same reaction. It isn’t the Sixties, it isn’t even the Eighties, it isn’t political correctness gone mad(tm) and it certainly isn’t thought control.
Between this ridiculousness, these responses, and what happened last year, the SFWA is looking like a whole nest of embarrassments.
Liz Argall
February 15, 2014 @ 1:52 am
It is worth noting that the actions you find embarrassing are by people who seem unhappy with SFWAs current direction. Did you read Mary Robinette Kowal’s post about the 12 rabid weasels last year? http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/dear-twelve-rabid-weasels-of-sfwa-please-shut-the-fuck-up/
It is interesting to think about structures of power in terms of who gets to define an organization and whose work gets thrown under the bus.
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 1:59 am
And who would wish to throw others under the bus given the chance.
I’m kinda wondering now if any of those weasels signed the petition.
Walt Fisher
February 15, 2014 @ 2:59 am
As a member of SFWA since 1975 I have seen dustups (flame wars, screaming matches–whatever you want to call them) before.
I have seen more of them than I would have liked. I even saw one long-running debate which would have dropped me (and a lot of other people) from the membership. All of it gave me heartburn.
I am proud to be a member if only an insignificant one. My name is connected in some small way with good, even great, writers.
I respect those who signed the petition and those who didn’t and who oppose it. The issues at hand are serious and should be discussed, but discussed in a reasonable manner. Throwing poop at those you disagree with just gets everyone dirty. It doesn’t benefit anyone outside of those who like to stir things up or get their jollies being in a constant state of outrage.
Two things bother me most about this kerfluffle.
1. Writing is at its’ core a lonely and difficult profession. Chances of success are limited and being beat about the head and shoulders by endless, rankerous battles limits those slim chances.
SFWA was founded and operates for the betterment of writers and writing. The orgainzation has done a lot of good and that shouldn’t be minimized by this debate.
Those who have quit, or refuse to join when eligible, are robbing themselves, other writers and writing itself of the chance to make an impact that would help everyone. Despite its’ isolating aspects, writing is a gift. Not everyone is born with talent, or is able to develop that talent to the point to make a contribution to literature. With that gift comes the responsibility to do your best and to pay back to the community at large.
2. All the time and energy that has been expended in blog posts, petitions, Facebook threads, Facebook comments and just general debate on this is all time and energy that could be spent in writing. Again, not to minimize the concerns behind the debate, but this has been going on at least since last June when the Bulletin was suspended (probably longer) and it has probably reached the point of deminishing returns by now.
Time for a short, reasonable discussion and then move on. Nobody is going to get all they want out of any solution.
I am also concerned that people who have commented here and say they have been marginalized and offended could then use the term “old white guy” (or equivalent) in lumping people together.
I am an old white guy. I was born white and male. Had no say in the matter. And, I will not apologize for living long enough to be considered old.
I am offended by the use of the term in a pajorative manner and as a term of derision. I believe someone else called this a minor aggression.
You may have been offended by an individual who was old, white and male, but it wasn’t me and lumping us all together is no less offensive than what you suffered.
Lastly I feel sorry for those who cannot separate the individual from the work. Yes, a particular writer, artist or musician may be a bigot, pervert or something else which may be anywhere from mildly to very offfensive on a personal level, but the inability to separate person from work is a kind of self-censorship and robs you of some great artistic works.
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 3:37 am
I am offended by the use of the term in a pajorative manner and as a term of derision.
*wince* That’s not gonna go down well.
Ok, look, I am white, male, and comparatively young, probably. I say this in hopes that you will understand I am not attacking you for being old, white, and male.
Yes, I understand that you are offended.
Yes, I understand that it hurts in some way.
Yes, you’re right, in a way it is just as bad as any other prejudicial statement.
On the other hand, there are no laws against being an old, white male.
There are no death sentences for being an old, white male. Not human-mandated ones.
There are no angry mobs who will beat you up for being an old, white male, and little chance that the cops will look the other way due to you being old and white.
There’s little chance that you will be discriminated against for a job that you are fully qualified for… not on the basis that you are white and male, although perhaps another candidate will be younger, more energetic.
So please, understand, that when they speak against ‘old, white men’, it is not about you. And it is a small thing in comparison to what they might have encountered. What they might encounter.
Please understand that.
Walt Fisher
February 15, 2014 @ 4:06 am
Jonathon,
I don’t disagree that there are places and times where not being of the majority class could be harmful or fatal. I meant no disrespect for anyone who suffered under those conditions.
My point here was that this discussion hardly rises to that level of seriousness. I also wanted to point that people who may have suffered some kind of discrimination should be sensitive to how their words might concern others. If you’ve suffered it why would you perpetuate that kind of behavior in another situation?
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 4:16 am
Walt,
Because people carry the weight of their experiences with them. They can’t just turn that sort of thing off because a discussion isn’t serious enough for it.
Besides, those experiences inform their viewpoints. Inform who they are. It’s not anyone’s place to tell them they can’t have that part of them with them. It would be like saying that they themselves are not welcome.
Veronica Schanoes
February 15, 2014 @ 7:00 am
I am offended by the use of the term in a pajorative manner and as a term of derision. I believe someone else called this a minor aggression.
You may have been offended by an individual who was old, white and male, but it wasn’t me and lumping us all together is no less offensive than what you suffered.
Cry me a river.
No, it is not a micro-aggression. Yes, it is less offensive than what women, people of color. The difference lies in power dynamics: being a white man gives you all kinds of privileges, comforts, and assurances that the rest of us do not have. Being white and male does not make you part of a persecuted or marginalized group; on the contrary, it makes you part of the group that benefits from the persecution and marginalization of the rest of us, at best.
Power dynamics matter. Contest matters. History matters. Being part of a powerful group is not equivalent to being part of a disenfranchised group.
If you are offended, console yourself by considering all the advantages that whiteness and maleness bring you, such as the smug certainty that your ability to separate the artist from the art (perhaps because you are not part of the group targeted by the artist for hatred and/or abuse?) is superior to considering the artist as a whole person.
Veronica Schanoes
February 15, 2014 @ 7:06 am
Your belief that this discussion doesn’t rise to that level of seriousness is something that those of us who are not part of the dominant class–those of us who, for example, were told to act like Barbie dolls in the trade publication of our professional organization–do not necessarily agree with.
Further, consider the source of this petition, and the fact that some not insignificant authors have chosen to ally themselves with Truesdale and Beale, and against the changes that would have address the way the Bulletin excluded and marginalized us. This is not insignificant, and it’s hard to believe that your ability to brush it off as insignificant is not at all connected to the fact that the marginalization is not happening to you.
Jim C. Hines
February 15, 2014 @ 9:47 am
Walt – There have been a number of people who strongly disagreed with the petition and signers who have nonetheless been pushing back against the ageism in some of the responses.
Rob
February 15, 2014 @ 10:22 am
This is the kind of outlook that perpetuates a lot of division and bad behavior in society. It is simply another embodiment of the kind of us v. them tribalism that causes us so many problems in terms of discrimination based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and the like. Only it is rationalized away, even as applied to a specific individual, based on some broad historical context. This is exactly the kind of thinking we need to move away from to progress as a species. Broad labels and characterizations based on intrinsic group affiliations are a bad idea, no matter which side they come from.
Veronica Schanoes
February 15, 2014 @ 11:27 am
That’s a lot of hot air with no actual substance or evidence.
It’s not a question of “broad historical context”–it’s a question of power imbalances here and now. Group membership affects one’s experience of the world, one’s life chances, and thus one’s opinions (Marx was right about a few things, and “social being determines consciousness” is one of them).
Not naming social groups won’t make that untrue. It’ll just make it impossible to talk about.
Karen
February 15, 2014 @ 12:17 pm
Why are the petition signers worried that a committee of people would be more capricious or agenda-driven than a single editor? Seems like a single editor without oversight would have much more opportunity to skew the content.
Jim C. Hines
February 15, 2014 @ 12:25 pm
I’ve wondered the same thing.
You think if I applied for the job, certain people might change their opinions on the need for oversight? 🙂
Erin Hoffman
February 15, 2014 @ 12:31 pm
My membership lapsed in 2012. I was still receiving the bulletin in 2013. It was probably unintentional, but it did have the effect that I reconsidered joining whenever I received it. I decided firmly not to and decided not to think about it further when the infamous cover hit my mailbox.
I would love to belong to an organization called the Science Fiction Writers of America, to support my peers and the profession. But SFWA with its backwards-looking attitudes has made it clear that it does not represent people like me. It isn’t just about a single cover image. It’s about a science fiction organization that wants to look backwards instead of forward in so many ways. I’m very fond of nostalgia pieces, but when it’s the only note emerging from an organization, relevancy and inclusivity will inevitably become questions.
I do think that this is a chilling effect and that the organization appears to be undergoing a difficult transition into modernity — one that I believe Sylvia Moreno-Garcia’s post with the covers of other professional organizations’ magazines illustrates.
Charlie Finlay’s response post detailing the process of the org’s decision and that the membership had expressed an interest in diversity on the whole was the first time I’d thought about re-joining in over a year. I respect the leadership a great deal for attempting this transition and wish them the best with it.
Dara
February 15, 2014 @ 12:32 pm
Oh god, I used to do that in my zine’s letter column. And I’d preserve the signatures, too. The best part was the resulting ever-widening difference between LoC signatures and ordinary cover letter signatures, from the same people. It was hilarious. XD
Jessica
February 15, 2014 @ 2:07 pm
I am offended by the use of the term in a pajorative manner and as a term of derision.
Welcome to our world, Walt. Except not. Because you don’t get to experience that every single day of your life. You don’t get to live with members of the dominant culture tweeting jokes about how shocking and disgusting it is to date you. You don’t have to live with the threat of old white cops beating you senseless in a police station. You don’t have to live with the threat of being executed because the cop who beat you up was jailed for your beating.
You don’t have to live with your entire existence being clickywriteymade illegal by ignorant politicians who let themselves be influenced by old white American bigots. Of course it’s not just old white American bigots. Other old white bigots are also getting into the game.
You don’t have to live with the threat of being stopped by the cops on a daily basis just because of the colour of your skin. Or because you’re carrying a condom in your purse.
You don’t have to live hearing about old white bigots threatening to burn your holy book. And then burning it. On nationwide TV.
So: ‘old white men’. Pejorative? Yes. Justified? Hell yes! You don’t like it? Well then CHANGE THE REASON WE’RE JUSTIFIED. Your complacent ignorance just got a little shaken up. It’s an opportunity. What are you going to do with it?
Adrian
February 15, 2014 @ 3:16 pm
Walt, this discussion is relatively trivial *for you*.
It is not similarly trivial for others whose voices have been habitually excluded.
Jim C. Hines
February 15, 2014 @ 3:23 pm
I’ve been mostly staying out of the comments because I’m hoping to finish a novel first draft this weekend, but I wanted to +1 this comment. I think this captures what’s at the heart of a lot of the anger.
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 3:57 pm
Problem is, who moves away from that thinking first? The racists, sexists, homophobes, etc., are pretty entrenched in their views and their hatreds. The bad ones, anyways. You might find some who are simply oblivious to reality, but educating them is more work than anyone has time for.
So the ones who have to ‘move away from that thinking’, who have to do the work, who have to be more enlightened, are the ones who already have to endure the racism, sexism, homophobia.
Be the better person. Easy to say when society’s not against you.
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 3:58 pm
Thank you for putting it better than I could.
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 3:59 pm
Thank you for putting it better than I could.
Jonathon Side
February 15, 2014 @ 4:08 pm
I think part of the problem is they seem to have jumped from the fact that there is no official roster for the board (because there is no board at this point of time) and assumed that OMG THE BOARD WILL BE ANONYMOUS HOW WILL WE KNOW WHAT THEIR AGENDA IS???
And conflated that with the stated desire to be less offensive and more inclusive, and end up with OMG THE SECRET BOARD WILL CENSOR EVERYTHING.
Not all of them think that way, certainly. Some have merely expressed concern that the board would have the _potential_ for abuse (though they have yet to say why one editor has less potential), or that they fear adding a layer of oversight will somehow prevent the editor from actually being an editor.
It’s telling that people like Truesdale assume that any board would have an agenda. Because he totally wouldn’t. Nope, not at all. Nuh uh.
Whoops, left the sarcasm switch on.
Sally
February 15, 2014 @ 5:30 pm
THIS.
The day-to-day experiences of, say, young Sudanese farmers have no measurable effects on my life. But I wouldn’t presume to tell them to shut up when the topic is farming, living in a war zone, poverty, income inequality in the Global South vs. Global North, etc.
And I wouldn’t tell them to shut up if they pointed out that my worry if I can keep making the COBRA payments doesn’t bother them.
Lenora Rose
February 15, 2014 @ 11:58 pm
I don’t remember who all of them were, and I don’t know all the signatories. But I can still answer with definite certainty that YES. Some did.
Jonathon Side
February 16, 2014 @ 12:08 am
I don’t even know who the specific weasels are, and I’m not asking. Mary didn’t name them, and I can respect that.
But still. Curious. And not surprised if they did.
Jonathon Side
February 16, 2014 @ 12:09 am
I really should have put quote marks around ‘isn’t serious enough for it’.
Oh well.
Lenora Rose
February 16, 2014 @ 12:09 am
Jessica: As a point,t here is some real and problematic ageism in the world too. White and male, I agree with you, “Wah, cry me a river”.
Old is getting into some problematic territory.
Lenora Rose
February 16, 2014 @ 12:15 am
Can you genuinely say that the people who quit over the sexism aspect of the furor, and not the “Strident manner of discussion” aren’t more chilled, and possibly more numerous, than the ones who don’t like people raising cain over the issue? Because most of the people I have seen say they quit did so much more because of the sexism than the voices raised agaisnt it, even if the raised voices drew their attention.
To me, the raised voices, and the response, make it more likely I will join when I qualify than a resounding silence in response to the sexism would have.
KatG
February 16, 2014 @ 1:55 am
Basically, some of the signers of the petition seem to be proposing that male writers should be able to say whatever they want in the Bulletin, talk about women’s bodies instead of their writing all day long, embarrass themselves, etc. And in return, female and male authors who don’t find this professional and equal, or what they paid their dues for as career help, or dehumanizing and demoralizing towards women can either shut up — because their free speech is unreasonable and bad and their membership in the organization doesn’t count — or they can write upset letters, which can then be ignored and that will be called “debate.”
What these authors don’t want to look at is the discrimination in making female authors constantly fight for their right to be treated seriously as equal, professional writers with the male author members, for their right to simply be heard, for their right not to be continually subjected to descriptions of how sexy their bodies are in their trade magazine, and then removing the ability for that fight to mean a damn thing and the women members to be able to have any say or contribution on policy in the organization. Essentially, all the proposals of the signers advocate repressing and discouraging the speech of most of the female members and many of the male ones, and repressing the ability of female members to participate in the organization as equal members and have the Bulletin represent them to the public as equal members.
The claim that an advisory committee to the president on the Bulletin is going to control the editor is a falsehood. The claim that the Bulletin should have no editorial policy and male writers should be able to write and publish — and get paid for — whatever they want about women in a professional trade journal is not an issue of free speech. It’s a power grab. If they want to drive female members away by telling them that they don’t have any rights in the organization because treating female members respectfully as equals is a “standard” that is just too icky, then these proposals would do an excellent job of that if they became policy.
I had given the signers of the petition — written by a really sexist and right wing guy whose not even part of SFWA — the benefit of a doubt that they maybe had been misled on facts and/or hadn’t thought things through. But these arguments of theirs that you are posting, Jim, seem to show that this isn’t the case for a number of them. And that is saddening.
Steven Gould, president of SFWA, made an official statement that included this:
“While this petition has not been formally presented to SFWA, I have seen versions and they express concerns for something that does not and will not exist:
Specifically, the editor of the Bulletin will not have to go to any selection or editorial review board to approve material.
In compliance with the by-laws and the will of our members, there will be regular oversight of the Bulletin to ensure that it is inclusive of and reflects the diversity of all our members, and that it continues to address the changing needs of professional writers.”
I suppose that they can call him a liar if they like. But given that the petition contains a number of falsehoods, I don’t find their position particularly trustworthy at this point.
Jessica
February 16, 2014 @ 1:55 am
I agree that it is problematic. Yet in this particular case, and in the cases I pointed out above, it is also quite literally descriptive. Yes, Ageism when applied in in general is just as wrong as any other -ism. The description ‘old’ must be used with great care and precision and even then risks being misinterpreted.
In our culture, old people are supposed to be wise, due to having outlived the risks which remove the young and foolish. Unhappily, in this case I don’t see the people in question showing very much wisdom at all 🙁
If we wish to avoid ageism, how then should we describe someone whose ideas of social behaviour fossilised some time in the late Jurassic?
Jonathon Side
February 16, 2014 @ 2:05 am
Hey, just because the Jurassic is old doesn’t mean it supported discrimination. For all we know, males and females were eaten with equal opportunity.
Will Shetterly
February 16, 2014 @ 9:40 am
Chasing the truth in these affairs is always tricky, but the job application still says, “Participate in proofing and review process with select volunteer and board members”. Is that no longer true?
As for the concerns about free speech, the price of supporting free speech is supporting the right for people to say things you don’t like. If that wasn’t so, the ACLU would not have to exist.
Jonathon Side
February 16, 2014 @ 2:09 pm
Chasing the truth in these affairs is always tricky, but the job application still says, “Participate in proofing and review process with select volunteer and board members”. Is that no longer true?
Not a member myself, but from what I’ve heard I understand that the president of SFWA currently has the ability/power to review the Bulletin before publication, and presumably to ask for changes or cancel things if deemed necessary.
So my question would be, not whether that statement is true (since it’s still up), but how would it be different?
Is it just adding more pairs of eyes to get different perspectives on proposed pieces? (“Hey Bab, Jane, this look ok to you? Nothing jumps out? Ok then.”)
Or is it actually, as the signatories of the petition seem to think, installing a set board of people who will actively scour the Bulletin with a particular agenda towards censoring… something. (“Aha! On page five, paragraph six, sentence two, they used the word ‘boobies’! CENSOR IT!”…. “That was talking about birds. The blue-footed booby?” “OBSCENITY!”)
And did any of the signatories actually ask?
As for the concerns about free speech, the price of supporting free speech is supporting the right for people to say things you don’t like. If that wasn’t so, the ACLU would not have to exist.
Uh huh. But freedom of expression is not a license to say whatever you want with no consequences. It also includes freedom to criticize and freedom to disagree. And it is ‘freedom of speech’, or ‘freedom of expression’, not ‘freedom from tact or good manners’.
Jessica
February 16, 2014 @ 4:13 pm
The great problem with casting this as a ‘free speech’ issue is that it isn’t. Here’s a handy little reminder of the truth of the situation.
Any private organisation creating rules about what it will or will not allow in its own private publication and/or private spaces in general does not in any way infringe upon anyone’s ‘free speech’ because there is nothing preventing anyone who feels infringed upon from setting up their own space and speaking freely from within it. No organisation is obliged to provide a platform for anyone who does not choose to obey the rules it decides to enforce.
Don’t like their rules? Then you’re welcome to complain as much as you want as long as you’re paying the bills in your own space. Doing anything else makes you look like you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Will Shetterly
February 16, 2014 @ 4:19 pm
Jessica, legal censorship is still considered a free speech issue. Alas, this doesn’t have a cute cartoon, but it’s fairly handy: http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/02/john-scalzi-vs-aclu-and-me-on-free.html
Jonathon Side
February 16, 2014 @ 5:15 pm
Ahahahah, ‘Bab’ should have been ‘Bob’. I’m a bonehead.
Jessica
February 16, 2014 @ 8:17 pm
It’s so sad to see someone who doesn’t quite understand. Did John stop you from saying what you wanted to say in your own property? No, since I was able to read what you wrote, quite obviously he didn’t. You said what you wanted to say.
Yet you still do not understand the complexities of the situation, or else you wouldn’t be bandying words like “censorship” around without really quite knowing what they mean. “Censorship” can only be done by a Government. When anyone else enforces their rules in their own private space it is not, has never been, and can never be “censorship”. How many times does that need to be repeated? All that the First Amendment does is guarantee that the Government cannot stop you from speaking.
It does not guarantee you a platform from which to speak;
It does not guarantee you an audience;
It does not guarantee you freedom from the consequences of your speech if other people consider it objectionable.
Getting onto the subject Truesdale was fearmongering about:
If an Editor throws your manuscript back on the slushpile how is that censorship?
If an Editor tells you that your submission does not meet the publication guidelines how is that censorship?
If an Editor tells you that your story sucks and he won’t publish it how is that censorship?
If any of those scenarios were actually censorship then you (and every other author in the world) have been censored every time an Editor sends you a rejection slip. That this is patently false is proven by the fact that you still have your work and are free to submit it to every other Editor in the world. Or to publish it yourself. YOU HAVE NOT BEEN CENSORED!
Next strawman, please?
Will Shetterly
February 16, 2014 @ 9:04 pm
Jessica, don’t take my word for it. Take the ACLU’s: “Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are “offensive,” happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional. In contrast, when private individuals or groups organize boycotts against stores that sell magazines of which they disapprove, their actions are protected by the First Amendment, although they can become dangerous in the extreme. Private pressure groups, not the government, promulgated and enforced the infamous Hollywood blacklists during the McCarthy period.”
SFWA me, baby, one more time | Cora Buhlert
February 16, 2014 @ 9:53 pm
[…] Jim C. Hines tries to understand the POVs of some of the signatories of the petition by offering quotes from posts (mostly on Facebook, hence no links) in which said signatories […]
Rev. Bob
February 16, 2014 @ 11:13 pm
Will:
I understand why you call private action censorship. I do not understand how that applies to a petition that explicitly refers to this as a “First Amendment issue” – which, as explained, it is not.
I Wish There Weren’t So Many Reasons to Talk About Discrimination in Geek Culture, But the Hits Just Keep Coming | The Geek Melange
February 17, 2014 @ 12:16 am
[…] explanation of why this is not about censorship, John Scalzi’s advice on petitions, and Jim Hines’s summation (Natalie Luhr’s analysis of Truesdale’s original petition is linked above). Suffice to […]
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 12:44 am
I was just thinking about that. Many people in my generation use “first amendment rights” in a very broad sense, as a shorthand for anything involving speech. Y’all take a far more literal approach, so people on both sides end up talking past each other. I doubt anyone who signed that petition thought this was a case that could go to the Supreme Court—people like Gene Wolfe do know what words mean. But it’s very likely the signers of that petition did not realize how little your group of writers care about private censorship. What I see is a clash of two completely different issues. For you, censorship is a way to end sexism and racism in the field. To the signers of the petition, censorship is censorship, regardless of the ostensible end, and bad means should not be condoned, no matter how admirable the goal.
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 1:07 am
The ACLU has wildly overstepped themselves with that definition. They’re by no means perfect and I consider that they’ve made a huge mistake in taking that position, especially when the actual definitions of free speech and censorship are concerned. Nobody ‘censored’ in the way the ACLU defines the term is ever actually censored; they always have a means to speak. Your stubborn reliance on their flawed argument undermines the validity of your position.
Writers being writers, knowing the power of words and the importance of meaning, ought to be very careful to read and understand any cause they may wish to support. By framing his petition as a First Amendment matter, Truesdale showcased his utter ignorance and arrogance. By signing it, the signers hitched their waggons to his, accepting that the informed public would consider them to be fools or at the very least ignorant dupes. It cannot be interpreted any other way. You claim that they know what the words mean, but the evidence visible to the observer tells a very different story.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 1:26 am
Okay, the ACLU doesn’t know anything about free speech, and the people who signed the petition don’t know anything about language. I learn something new every day.
Regarding censorship, you will also find dictionaries that have wildly overstepped themselves.
Marie Dowd
February 17, 2014 @ 1:29 am
On this particular issue, I see this as censorship vs censorship: chilling the new demographic’s speech and participation or chilling the traditional demographics right to speak rude and dismissive things. This makes it a no win scenario, right? Some rough and tumble and arguments are part of a lively discourse, but that means both side must keep it civil. No kvetching about old people or being oversensitive.
Change must come, because the fact is that the demographics of SF writers and readers are changing. Before that, the female authors in any genre field except romance were a distinct minority. I remember seeing that even at cons when I was too young to care. But we have to balance the chilling affect of the two competing censorships: those who want professional respect and those who don’t want that change.
If you want to put this on a more business model: this magazine is supposed to be a benefit for all members, and if the tone doesn’t serve a majority perhaps its time has passed. Then it should go the route of any magazine that doesn’t serve the audience.
Jonathon Side
February 17, 2014 @ 1:34 am
So… wait… if the Bulletin chooses not to publish something… say, for instance, they hadn’t actually ran the Resnick/Malzberg column from that last issue before the meltdown… that would be censorship?
Choosing not to publish something, for whatever reason, is censorship?
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 1:59 am
An editor helps writers make their intent clearer. A censor removes or changes a writer’s meaning. Traditionally, there’s a dialogue between writers and editors, while censors simply dictate. Editors are concerned with art. Censors are considered with the political implications of art. An editor would get someone’s reminiscences and work on what was redundant. A censor would parse every word for the possibility it might offend—but free speech is about the right to offend, whether you’re talking about politics or pornography or anything else where someone is liable to say, “That offends me! It should not be published!” Censors believe in silencing people. Free speech advocates believe in answering speech with more speech.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 2:01 am
Stupid typo: “are *concerned* with” Clearly, it’s time for bed.
Jonathon Side
February 17, 2014 @ 2:11 am
That seems like a reasonable viewpoint.
Two things though:
1) As I’ve seen said often, not everything will (or can) be published. Be it for reasons of space, or ‘fit’, or lack of interest… so is choosing not to publish something censorship?
2) Let’s go again, with Resnick and Malzberg. Way I hear it, that last article was pretty much a diatribe against their detractors. If that’s so, I’m not sure what the editor could do to, well, polish it up to get the best out of it while not fanning the flames. So if they came to loggerheads over it… the editor wasn’t happy to publish it in the form the writers wanted published, and the writers refused to change their work in any way… and thus the editor refused to publish it. Is that censorship?
roger tang
February 17, 2014 @ 2:15 am
This is the kind of outlook that perpetuates a lot of division and bad behavior in society.
Then you can give it up.
You do know you’re generating a lot of this yourself, right?
roger tang
February 17, 2014 @ 2:17 am
The level of seriousness, I think, is better judged by those who’s toes are being stepped on, as opposed to those who are stepping on said toes.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 2:22 am
Jonathan Side:
1. No.
2. Rabe published their article. She probably expected there would be some sort of response in the next issue, something along the lines of Hines’ article in the same issue that was a response to the chain mail bikini cover. Instead, Scalzi shut down the magazine.
Jonathon Side
February 17, 2014 @ 2:42 am
1: Ok, so things can be not published and it’s not censorship. Alrighty then.
2. I know. It was an example using an existing situation. Strip it back to the basics then: the writers want to publish something deliberately inflammatory, the editor tries to work it into a better form and neither side can agree, so the editor turns them down.
Rev. Bob
February 17, 2014 @ 3:08 am
Will:
I asked my question neutrally, and the way you responded exposes your biases profoundly.
You don’t know a thing about me, yet because I dared to ask you a clarifying question, you leapt like a rabid dog to the conclusion that I must be a pro-censorship badthinker. You also make assumptions about my age and profession which are not in evidence. (I happen to work as a web programmer for a company whose legal troubles led to the genesis of the EFF. We’re quite sensitive to censorship issues, thank you very much.)
Further, when you say that “people like Gene Wolfe do know what words mean,” you’re absolutely right. They do, or at least they should. That’s why people have concluded that, by signing their names to a petition, Wolfe and his peers are indicating their fully informed agreement with all the content of that petition, exactly as written. If anything, I hold them to a higher standard precisely because they are professional writers whose jobs rely on the skilled use of language to make a point. To be blunt, we hold them in sufficiently high esteem that we would never assume that they simply sign anything that says “censorship is bad” without reading the full text.
As to the rest of your thesis, that magazines are “censored” when their editors have to answer to the Board and President of the publishing organizations, we both know that’s just silly talk. Others, both here and elsewhere, have answered that point admirably well, and I see no point in reiterating the same material.
I will add one note from personal experience, though. When I hired on with my current employer, it was with full knowledge that every word which goes onto our website must be vetted first. I have a certain degree of leeway, typically for time-sensitive or very minor issues, but if I misuse it, I can be (and would expect to be) fired for it. In short, I answer to the owner of the company as well as everyone above me in the TOO. In some cases, there are people outside of my strict chain of command who have control over certain areas, and I must check content with them as well. Never for an instant have I considered this a form of censorship. Instead, I respect the company’s right to control the image it sets forth, and my job is to make the pages work, not to write the content or define the company’s image. Does the SFWA not have the same right to control the content of the Bulletin, and do the bylaws not already hold its editor responsible to the Board and President if (s)he makes a bad editorial decision?
In some cases, my professional standards have clashed with instructions I’ve been given. In such instances, my duty is to speak up (inside the company) and explain the problem. So far, I have been able to present my point in such a way that I haven’t ended up forced to choose between my job and my standards. If push came to shove, though, I like to think that I would choose my standards and resign my position. I would hope that the Bulletin’s next editor has a similar sense of ethics, and would tell the hypothetical review board to shove off if they actually tried to act as censors.
By the by, next time you watch a movie, do me a small favor and remember four letters: MPAA. Enough said?
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 3:12 am
Putting words in my mouth does nothing to further your argument. All it does is make you look stubborn and wrong.
You are arguing semantics rather than substance. You have done this throughout your participation in these comments. That also makes you look wrong. What it tells me is that you have no actual facts to bring to the discussion.
Rev. Bob
February 17, 2014 @ 3:52 am
A small point, perhaps, but one that I believe needs to be explicitly stated…
A controversial statement which is true will offend someone, but a statement which offends someone is not necessarily true.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 8:22 am
Many people in my generation use “first amendment rights” in a very broad sense, as a shorthand for anything involving speech.
Nonsense. I know many politically active leftists from your generation. They are quite clear on what the first amendment means, when it applies, and when it doesn’t. Don’t be absurd.
it’s very likely the signers of that petition did not realize how little your group of writers care about private censorship.
Oh, whine whine whine. When the SFWA Bulletin has the wide-ranging career-ending powers of Hollywood in the 1950s, and their blacklist is determined and enforced by the federal government and its attempts to imprison people for their refusal to co-operate, I guarantee you that I will take their “censorship” as seriously as you seem to. Degree matters. Power matters. Structure matters. I’m surprised that as a Marxist, you have forgotten that.
In the meantime, I will merely note that I had not realized how little your group of writers cared about misogyny and the marginalization of women. To my group of writers, misogyny is misogyny, regardless of the ostensible principle used to justify it, and misogyny should not be supported.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 8:34 am
Editors are concerned with art. Censors are considered with the political implications of art.
I would love to know how you imagine “art” is to be separated from “the political implications of art.” Are you seriously claiming that style and content are separate and distinct spheres, and the concern with one has nothing to do with the other? That is…the least artistic understanding of art I have ever heard.
An editor helps writers make their intent clearer. A censor removes or changes a writer’s meaning. Traditionally, there’s a dialogue between writers and editors, while censors simply dictate.
This is, to be crude, the dumbest definition of editing I have ever heard. I was requested to write a story for an anthology recently. When I sent the story to the editor, he/she did not like and suggested a number of changes that, in my opinion, would have destroyed the story, removed its teeth, and utterly transformed the point of the tale. We could not come to an agreement, she/he did not want to publish the story in the form I wanted it in, and I pulled the story (and yes, there were significant political meanings at stake). Was that the dreaded censorship? The thin edge of the fascist wedge? Have I been a victim of the Stalinst/Maoist forces, a la Resnick and Malzberg? Truly, is the oppressor grinding my artist’s face with her/his heel? Where was the petition? Where was my support among the Grand Old Men of science fiction?
No. Don’t be absurd. I just had a story that didn’t match the desires and tastes of a given editor and his/her anthology. I went on to sell it elsewhere. For more money.
When an author’s intent clashes with an editor’s desire, the piece doesn’t run in that editor’s project, and the ghost of Voltaire is undisturbed.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 8:42 am
Well, do feel free to bring this egregious violation of free speech to the attention of the ACLU and get back to me with that they say.
You’re the one who claimed Wolfe et al did not know what words mean when you tried to excuse their invocation of the first amendment by claiming it meant any free speech issue. Your excuse for them consists of “they use words to mean things they don’t.” Jessica is the one holding them to the high standard of, well, knowing what “first amendment” means.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 8:49 am
No. The chain of events was thus:
1) Rabe published the cover. In that same issue, Rabe published Resnick and Malzberg waxing eloquent about the looks of lady editors in swimsuits.
2) Rabe published an article advocating that women model themselves on Barbie dolls.
3) Rabe published Resnick and Malzberg comparing their detractors to Mao and Stalin because apparently they believe that they should get to say whatever they want whenever they want wherever they want and any criticism is the equivalent of being sent to the gulags.
How many errors of judgment does an editor have to make, in your book, before a publisher is allowed to decide that she/he no longer gets to edit a given publication? Or is being an editor involve being in a constant state of grace, with no consequences for poor judgment ever?
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 9:01 am
Further, I’m not interested in being part of an organization that judges me mainly on my decorative value to straight men. A not insignificant number of writers of “my group” feel the same way. Is it your contention that SFWA is required to privilege Resnick’s, Malzberg’s, and Henderson’s maundering fantasies at the expense of their own efficacy as an organization?
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 9:26 am
In general, I think it’s a real mistake to think of these issues in terms of whether or not a statement offends somebody. I don’t care about whether or not people’s feelings are hurt. It’s not about subjective hurt feelings.
It’s about misogyny, racism, the marginalization of women, and whether or not SFWA wants to publicly support these things and the damage they do as an organization.
If a racist statement is made in a room containing only members of the KKK, nobody will find it offensive. But it will still be racist, and that’s the problem.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 10:13 am
It’s called a joke, because really, if you don’t think the ACLU knows anything about free speech, the only thing to do is laugh.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 10:16 am
No one has said legal censorship is not legal. And no, I did not say Wolfe did not know what words mean. I’ve admired Gene Wolfe’s understanding of words since I read The Shadow of the Torturer. I think the problem here is that you don’t understand metaphorical speech.
Here’s something the ACLU did say: “Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional.”
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 10:18 am
2. That’s censorship. You’re beginning with an interesting assumption, which is that no one should publish anything that’s inflammatory.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 10:25 am
2. Nope. For some weird reason I don’t get, the writer advocated writers modeling themselves after Barbie dolls.
Malzberg and Resnick described Mahaffey as competent, unpretentious, and generous, as well as describing her as attractive. Here’s a bit from something I’m writing:
In “Is it too late for SF?”, Jemisin began, “So yesterday I went to Crunch Gym to take part in my first Cardio Sculpting class. The instructor was a handsome young man…” The relevance of the instructor’s looks is never established. Jemisin simply noted it.
Because she, like most of us, notices attractive people.
Unlike Resnick and Malzberg, she begins by mentioning the man’s attractiveness and only gets to his competence later.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 12:24 pm
There’s a difference between submitting something and having something changed after it has been accepted. From an ACLU response to the censoring of Norman Finkelstein at Clark: “By censoring speech because of complaints about offensiveness or the controversial nature of the speaker, the university has essentially allowed what the courts call a “heckler’s veto” over what speech can be heard.”
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 12:25 pm
Yes, the MPAA is another example of legal censorship.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 12:29 pm
I said “many”, not all. Of course there are leftists of my generation who don’t use the term broadly. I’m one, though when I see others use it as the signers of the petition did, I gloss over it because I’m aware of the broader use.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 12:47 pm
You’re missing the point: you cited the the ACLU to demonstrate that we should take SFWA’s attempts at “censorship” as seriously as a first amendment violation. If they–the originators of your definition–do not, that severely undermines your argument. So contact them, and tell me what they say.
Rachael Acks
February 17, 2014 @ 12:49 pm
I actually believe very strongly in freedom of speech and the free expression of ideas. That said:
1) Freedom of speech does not mean you are then free from the consequences of the stupid and reprehensible things you use that freedom to say.
2) Freedom of speech in no way obligates me to provide you a platform from which to spew stupid and reprehensible things.
3) Freedom of speech in no way obligates any private organization to provide you a platform and *pay* you to spew stupid and reprehensible things under their banner.
SFWA is an organization of which I’m a part, and it’s supposedly an organization of professionals. That means I expect anyone holding office to act professional and not besmirch the reputation of the organization when they are acting and speaking as officers. This also means I expect all official publications/communications to maintain a minimum level of professionalism. And I am very, very glad that the current officers (and those in the recent past) agreed that chainmail bikinis and dismissive, sexist screeds do not meet that minimum level of professionalism. Otherwise, I’d probably be reconsidering my membership.
Malzberg, Resnick, and anyone else are free to say whatever embarrassing things they want from their own platform. At this point, I’m more than happy to see them keep expressing their thoughts freely and generally digging that hole deeper and deeper. But trying to make this into a principled issue of free speech is, frankly, ridiculous on its face. Any publication has editorial guidelines. And any professional organization whose bread and butter doesn’t involve attacking large swathes of the population has a vested interest in not alienating its membership or the public. Now, if SFWA was following its members around and telling them what they could and could not say in their personal blogs and Twitter streams, we’d be having a very different discussion right now and I have little doubt we’d be on the same side. But that’s not what is happening, not even close.
I’ve seen your bit below about private pressure groups, and while that example may have legs in some instances, trying to apply it to this case is a sad stretch indeed. SFWA is not using its power (whatever power it has) to punish people for saying reprehensible things; sorry, but “we’re not going to publish this distasteful editorial because it fails to meet our guidelines” does not qualify as a punishment, and no pressure in this regard is being exerted elsewhere. An organization gets to decide how it will present itself to the public with its official statements and publications, full stop. That this particular organization has decided to not pay writers to publicly humiliate it with troglodytic screeds is well within its rights.