Reason and Anger
As a typically egotistical author, I’ve got Google alerts to let me know when people are talking about me or my books. This week, I saw a number of links to my letter to Elizabeth Moon, including a few people who said they appreciated the letter, but were turned off by the comments praising how “reasonable” I was being.
That stuck with me. Isn’t reasonableness a good thing? I was brain-fried by that point, and had to tuck it away in my head because I couldn’t quite parse it … until another commenter popped up to say he was talking to me because of my reasoned take on things, “unlike 85% of the poo-hurling monkeys.”
That comment helped me crystallize how the “reasonable” thing could become a problem.
For one thing, as was pointed out by another commenter, I’m not Muslim. I’m not directly, personally hurt by prejudice against Muslims, meaning it’s easier for me to be step back and be “reasonable.” Taking that further, if you restrict your conversations to only those you deem reasonable, it seems like you could ignore a disproportionate number of those most directly affected … those whose experiences are most worth listening to. (I’m still sorting this one out, so feel free to poke my logic here.)
There’s also the dynamic of telling victims of prejudice they must be this reasonable before we’ll listen. Putting the onus not on those who committed the offense, but on the victims, and simultaneously creating a movable bar which can be used as an excuse to stop listening.
And we shouldn’t skip the irony of protesting that “those people” are too angry and insulting, while simultaneously telling those “poo-hurling monkeys” and “PC Nazis” to “stuff it where the sun don’t shine.”
Finally, the question of “How can they expect reasoned discourse if they’re so angry/belligerent/etc.?” misses the point that maybe “they” aren’t interested in discussing things with you right now.
Let’s say someone writes an editorial in Springield, Missouri to complain about the books in his schools, asking “How can Christian men and women expose children to such immorality?” Maybe he picks a novel about rape and recovery, which he characterizes as a filthy, demeaning book, labeling it soft pornography.
I could write a calm, reasoned response explaining that rape =/= sex, and discussing the importance of students having access to stories and information about rape.
But maybe I’ve done so many of those posts about rape issues that I’m just plain tired. Maybe this week I don’t have the sporks for it. After spending years as a counselor and rape educator, talking to people who didn’t realize how prevalent rape was, or who had no reference to understand what had been done to them because people are so eager to silence any discussion of or reference to rape, maybe I’m too pissed to want any sort of dialogue with a guy like this or his supporters right now. Maybe I just need to be angry, to say that if he had his head any further up his ass, he’d collapse into a singularity.
I usually try for the calm, “reasonable” approach. I appreciate comments and disagreement, and I love the discussions people have here. That’s my choice. I do it knowing people will disagree. I know I’ll get more comments calling me a PC Nazi, or telling me to die in a fire. It happens. Freedom of speech =/= Freedom from criticism or disagreement.
To be clear, I’m not criticizing those who said they appreciated the tone of my letter. I spent a lot of time on that post, and I was very glad for the reassurance that I accomplished what I tried to do. But I think I also understand a little better how, when taken further, the “reasonable” thing can become problematic.
Like I said, I’m still sorting all of this out in my head. So discussion and thoughts are very much welcome. Even if they’re “unreasonable.”
Marie Bilodeau
September 23, 2010 @ 9:50 am
I think reasonable is a marvelous, if sometimes rare, thing. That’s one of the many reasons I love your blog. As a thank you for writing such a great blog, I’d in fact like to gift you with some of my spork allotment. Have an extra ten. I hope it helps!
Jim C. Hines
September 23, 2010 @ 9:54 am
Thanks, Marie! Very much appreciated. (It’s been a long week on the day job, too, which is taking up a lot of my spork allotment.)
What I really need is to just go ahead and order that Titanium Spork from ThinkGeek 🙂
Skennedy
September 23, 2010 @ 10:44 am
Isn’t communication just the most complicated thing ever? We can’t just be satisfied with getting thing one out of my brain and into yours, we also have to take into account how our brains may be different, and whether thing 1 still -means- what I thought it meant once it is in your brain, and not thing 2 which is entirely different (and insulting). And worse, maybe I think I’m giving you thing 1, but really I’m giving you thing 3, thinking it’s thing 1, which you interpret as thing 2.
!!!
Ice cream is much easier to understand.
Resa
September 23, 2010 @ 10:51 am
I suspect that some of the people unhappy with reasonableness may be accusing you of temporizing.
I have a complicated thing to say about outgroups, identity, and how purposeful distancing from dominant culture both helps and hinders minority causes, but I don’t have the brain for it right now. I’ll just say that as a person who shares her ethnic blend with probably less than 10K people worldwide, I’m glad to have you speaking about issues of race and minority culture.
Jim C. Hines
September 23, 2010 @ 10:55 am
I would like to contribute to your ice cream initiative. Please e-mail me further information on this subject.
Jim C. Hines
September 23, 2010 @ 10:56 am
Thanks. And I completely sympathize with lack of brain. This particular post has been sitting in draft mode for two days while I tried to recover enough brain cells to finish it.
D. Moonfire
September 23, 2010 @ 10:59 am
I try really hard not to only pay attention that are “reasonable”. I think it very important to read about unreasonable, insane, and otherwise brain-dead people from the simple point that I’m looking at them from my point of view. If I stuck with reasonable, then I’ll be just confirming the biases I already have (I believe the proper term is confirmatory bias or something like that). I won’t learn anything more and I’ll just put myself in a bigger hole that I’m already in.
It is painful to read other writings though, more so as my opinions continue to be established. I have certain tenants in life (pick choice over limitations, not tell people what to do, etc) that I look at others and when I see someone ranting against those, it gets frustrating, but if I don’t listen, then I won’t ever understand WHY they are that way. I also won’t grow as a person if I don’t try.
When the flood of Iowa hit and I couldn’t live in my apartment, I spent three months in my in-laws’ house. They are… not aligned with me when it comes to religion, sexuality, and politics. Actually, they are pretty much my opposite in all of those. We got into so many discussions about those topics, poking at each other, but we never really got into personal attacks. Neither of us really changed our opinions, but we at least saw the other side and maybe got a bit more empathy toward it.
I think it critical to see the world from points of view that don’t agree with you, those unreasonable people out there. The world is more than just ourselves and our views and I’d rather struggle with cracking my confirmatory biases than confirming them. Yes, I know it is almost impossible to get rid of a bias like that.
Jim C. Hines
September 23, 2010 @ 11:08 am
I find I’m more likely to follow blogs that I disagree with, to pick an example, if they talk about what they believe and why. I don’t mind anger, either. But if a blog is mostly just “Those liberal PC idiots are all full of crap,” then I’ll probably stop reading. Not because they don’t have the right to be pissed off or insulting, but because I don’t see any benefit to me reading after that.
But I definitely agree with you about confirmation bias, or whatever the official name is, and maybe it’s just me but it feels like that’s become more and more of an issue. I blame the Internets, because, well, it’s an easy scapegoat.
My in-laws and I don’t agree about a number of issues either. We don’t actually talk about it much, but when I’ve responded to a forwarded e-mail to say “Actually, I disagree with this,” or something like that, they’ve always been willing to listen. Like you, I don’t know if anyone changed their minds on either side, but I think it’s good to get that reminder that some people disagree, and that they’re still human.
Anna Maria
September 23, 2010 @ 12:02 pm
Immediately before I came here, I was reading a blog post about the issue you alluded to. The blogger was calling for everyone on both sides of the fence to calm down and talk to one another. It irritated me because I feel I have a right to be upset and to express my outrage. I don’t care if the extremists don’t agree with me. I’m not trying to change their minds. I’m pretty sure those minds couldn’t be changed with a crowbar. And so the blogger’s post came off as patronizing to me, “Settle down now, children, let’s be reasonable about this.”
KatG
September 23, 2010 @ 2:02 pm
I was rather stunned to hear about Ms. Moon doing the post, as were many. I’ve had some interaction with her online at SFFWorld and found her to be a sharp cookie and knowledgable about a lot of subjects. I knew that she was sort of moderate center politically, or at least that was my impression. She’s definitely a feminist and I had been linking to another piece she did on that subject right before all this broke. So it just didn’t seem to compute, this blanket condemnation that she did, although it may in part be due to her feminism. She is not some opportunistic, extremist media pundit. But as we know, people who aren’t that can still have views with which we deeply disagree and which we view as hurtful to others. She screamed and people screamed back and that’s all part of free speech. People who feel they’ve been attacked have a right to scream, people who disagree have a right to do so forcefully. The victim should not be further victimized by being told to surpress their voice.
But screaming isn’t the only way to create change and awareness. And if that is the goal, and if the person you are disagreeing with isn’t just doing it to get you to scream, screaming tends to stop the conversation. I had that experience recently with a forum conversation about YA and male and female readers. It was a decent conversation with several people participating, but I did indeed start to get tired of the opinions of some of the participants on some things. And so I didn’t scream, but I got snappy, and the conversation just entirely stopped after my post. Now I can view that as an attempt to not engage with and sit on an angry female voice — and I won’t tell someone who feels that way that they are wrong — but for me, it was me shutting down the conversation because I stopped talking in a way that allowed interaction, and that didn’t make my argument, that didn’t get people thinking about what I’d been talking about.
So I don’t think people who scream should be hushed, but I also don’t think anyone has the right to tell someone else that they can’t be reasonable, that they can’t try to engage. And even if you’re not Muslim, Jim, if you don’t speak out about what you feel in support, then it can also be seen as being complicit in a view the exact opposite of the one you hold. It slows and stagnates change when people say nothing when they strongly disagree. It isolates Muslims, women, etc. without support when that support is actually there. We need both voices, the reasonable one and the scream, if we have any hope of hearing one another, and we need to stop trying to control people as to how they converse and let them try it one way or another.
Ken Marable
September 23, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
Reasonableness definitely has it’s place, and without reasonable discourse, it is very hard to make progress and spread understanding. However, sometimes there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough.
One personal reason I get worked up over the original issue here is that I have seen the distrust and discrimination many have suffered due to being (incorrectly) associated with terrorists in many people’s eyes. I have a co-worker who is Hindu and of Indian descent (born and raised an American citizen just like me). When he and his wife moved a few years ago, they were pulled over in their rented moving truck and forced to empty everything out so that the police could search it for bombs. This wasn’t a few weeks after 9/11 when paranoia was hard to avoid, no, this was YEARS later. It isn’t even a religious issue – they just looked like they could be Middle Eastern, and they were driving a moving truck, so they had to go through what he said was the most humiliating moment of his life. (His wife was just confused since they were Hindu not Muslim. As she said, “We don’t even eat meat!”) 🙂
Also, the local Islamic Center here has put up with offensive graffiti and other vandalism, and numerous burnt remains of Qurans left on their doorstep over the years (including another one this past Sept 11).
I doubt they are the only ones to suffer fear and hatred for the past NINE YEARS.
People who say that the Muslims who want to build a community center a couple blocks away from Ground Zero should be more sensitive, probably don’t realize how insensitive it is to keep holding innocent people accountable for the actions of a few fanatics over 9 years ago. Maybe they are tired of being humiliated by having their moving truck searched for bombs. Maybe they are tired of having their gathering places defaced with vile hate speech. Maybe they are tired of being told where they are and are not welcome in a country of which they are as much citizens of as the rest of us.
Although not perfectly analogous, of course, it does make me think of someone telling Rosa Parks to just sit in the back of the bus. It doesn’t matter that much, she will get home all the same, and maybe being polite and reasonable will create a bridge of understanding. Just compromise and it will get better.
After 9 years of putting up with distrust and at times outright hatred, if Muslims don’t want to just compromise, I certainly don’t blame them. At a point, like Rosa Parks, you have to stop being polite and reasonable. You have to stand your ground and say no.
(Sorry for the long rant, but as I said in the other post’s comments, I have a hard time staying reasonable over this issue.)
Laura Resnick
September 23, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
It’s also worth noting that -emotion- is highly over-valued by many people, i.e. the notion that how strongly you feel about something has a direct corollary to how informed, valid, or inherently correct your opinions are.
In this vein, being “reasonable” (i.e. logical, fair, relying on facts rather than just on feelings, seeing the complexity of a situation, etc.) is often considered a DETRIMENT–you’re not shrieking, foaming at the mouth, weeping, cursing, shouting, beating your chest, etc… so you must just be arguing your point as an insipid intellectual exercise to show off how smart you are, rather than because you CARE about this.
Keep in mind that it has often been treated as a politicl DETRIMENT or PROBLEM for the current US President, one of the most powerful peope in the world who deals with extremely complex problems daily (hourly!) that… he is “too logical” and “too rational” and doesn’t appear “emotional enough.” I have never understood the craving of people to see someone with THAT much power and THAT many extermely difficult and complex daily decisions to make… be “emotional” RATHER THAN cool-headed, logical, and reasoning. But this has been an image problem for President Obama ever since he entered the presidential race, and it remains one for him now.
So a reasoned argument demonstrating the ability to think through a situation, examine it thoroughly, appeciate its long-range and larger ramifications, and form opinions, positions, and arguments about it that you can discuss, defend, and use to persuade others… will always be seen, by a disturbingly large number of people, as “proof” that you don’t CARE about the subject, you’re just trying to look smart or engage in a debate exercise.
D. Moonfire
September 23, 2010 @ 4:38 pm
I’d love it if our laws were made with well-reasoned arguments instead of emotions. But, I favor justifications instead of chest-beating, simply because decisions made with emotions seem to be short-sighted and very “goal oriented”.
Jaymee Goh
September 23, 2010 @ 4:53 pm
I disagree. Whether you’re using reason or emotion to make decisions, you can still be short-sighted and goal-oriented. I’m generally one to reach for my reasonable-ness and let my anger build later on, and lately I’ve been finding that it’s only later that I realize anger would have served better. When you’re doing the “let’s be reasonable” thing all the time, it gets suspect, because then how can the people being harmed know you’re REALLY on their side (or against them), just putting up a front? It’s an extension of the tone argument to categorically value one over another.
There needs to be space for anger, just as there’s space for reason. I find reason to be overrated, a haven for dogwhistlers. E Moon was reasonable in her argument, wasn’t she? But she was still wrong, and a bigot. Yet she’ll get taken more seriously in certain (more powerful circles, might I add), because she’s “reasonable”.
Jim C. Hines
September 23, 2010 @ 7:05 pm
I don’t think anyone was saying I (or others) am not allowed to be reasonable. I still feel good about what I wrote.
And I agree with you that often, if the goal is to engage in discussion with someone you disagree with, that rage and venting can be counterproductive. But I also recognize that there are other goals.
Mostly it was recognizing that “reasonable” can be a good and productive thing, but it can also be used to try to pressure or silence people, if that makes sense?
Jim C. Hines
September 23, 2010 @ 7:07 pm
“Sorry for the long rant, but as I said in the other post’s comments, I have a hard time staying reasonable over this issue.”
Well, given the post, I’m hardly in a position to tell you to stop ranting and be more reasonable 🙂
And yeah. Reasonable can be a good thing, but it’s certainly not the only thing. And I do think a lot of people don’t realize how much hostility and prejudice and hate is out there. (After all, I’m a middle-class white man. I don’t see it, so it doesn’t exist, right?)
Laura Resnick
September 24, 2010 @ 12:07 am
“E Moon was reasonable in her argument, wasn’t she?”
Jaymee Goh, this probably explains why I don’t agree with anything you’ve just said.You and I evidently have very different notions of what constitutes “reason.”
Brad R. Torgersen
September 27, 2010 @ 9:14 am
Jim, I respect you as a fellow traveler in the fiction-writing world. I understand if you do not like my defense of Moon, and I also understand if you dislike how I characterized LiveJournal — poo monkeys, et al. Having been serial-slagged by that community’s participants — people who operate without accountability from behind pseudonyms — I’ve got a rather low opinion of the place; or at least the particular crowd of LiveJournalites who flock to any imbroglio involving gender/race/isms. I’ve seen them slag several other authors, and my patience for that sort of behavior is paper-thin.
The logic of LiveJournal seems to be: the more people you can get to “pile on” the offender, the more your argument gains validity via ad populum logical fallacy. And in instances past where other authors have been slagged by this community, the discourse — ad hominem in the extreme — has had little to recommend it.
What happened with Moon is what happens often in so many of these “discussions” at LiveJournal. Moon was not only declared wrong, words were shoved into her mouth. She was branded as racist, and Islamophobic, then hectored by a self-assigned troupe of ‘educators’ and ‘correctors.’ Like a school of nurses coming by every 20 minutes to put fresh alcohol on an open cut. “Be quiet Ms. Moon, this is good for you!”
Again, having observed this sort of behavior at LiveJournal for the last two years, I’ve got a low tolerance for it. And I am surprised when any author chooses to join in the ‘correcting’ of another author in so public as fashion.
Let me ask a question, Jim: as a fellow professional, why was it necessary for you to address Moon in a public letter? Would it have been more productive to privately mail Moon — easily done, I’ve done it — and address your concerns? Or was your letter intended more as a device to put you on the “right” side of this issue, for public eyes, and you were addressing Moon rhetorically?
Jim C. Hines
September 27, 2010 @ 9:28 am
“Let me ask a question, Jim: as a fellow professional, why was it necessary for you to address Moon in a public letter? Would it have been more productive to privately mail Moon — easily done, I’ve done it — and address your concerns? Or was your letter intended more as a device to put you on the “right” side of this issue, for public eyes, and you were addressing Moon rhetorically?”
Had Elizabeth Moon said what she did to me privately, say at the bar at a convention or chatting on e-mail, I would have responded in kind.
She wrote a public blog post. I answered the same way.
The rest of what you wrote is either insulting and not worthy of response, or repetition of points already made and answered elsewhere.
I find it curious, though … for someone so up in arms against the Political Correctors, as you call them, you certainly seem to spend a lot of energy chiding and correcting those of us who publicly disagreed with Moon in a fashion you don’t personally approve of.
Skennedy
September 27, 2010 @ 10:00 am
I think it is difficult for people to remember that blog communities like LiveJournal have something that other places do not – scale. The sheer quantity of voices is staggering.
If someone posts on their blog and the LJ “community” (of which there are actually tens of thousands) picks it up … it’s everywhere. Just like the internet in general, if you say something that resonates, it will soar, and just like art, sometimes people will dislike it, and that, too will spread fast and furious.
Any motivations ascribed to thousands of individual comments and tens of thousands of opinions spread on peoples’ own blogs are straw men – easy to dismiss compared to the rainbow of actual diverse opinion.
Resa
September 27, 2010 @ 10:51 am
@Skennedy:
Any motivations ascribed to thousands of individual comments and tens of thousands of opinions spread on peoples’ own blogs are straw men – easy to dismiss compared to the rainbow of actual diverse opinion.
The bulk of the Live Journal community is certainly not responsible for the behavior of any cadre of LJ users, any more than the entire community of Islam is responsible for the destruction of the WTC. But that cadre of LJ posters that Brad Torgersen refers to do a lot of damage to their own supposed cause and to LJ’s overall community image. I’m not sure we should even think of LJ as having a community image, but humans are tribal creatures and tend to think in tribal terms. “Those people over there are like. . .”. We can talk about stereotyping and mental social shorthand another time, though. 🙂
I thought I was in harmony with the RaceFail goals at first, goals that I thought were making people more aware of unconscious racism, encouraging people (especially writers) to examine their world view, make people aware of the privilege and power that they may have inherited from their society predicated on their race, gender or socio-economic status, and work to change the perceptions of non-white people in fiction and the media.
There have been many posts from the RaceFail cadre that I perceived as shaming, hurtful, trollish and downright not the way my Mom would have expected decent persons to behave. I think those tactics are destructive. Those sort of posts elicit responses like Brad Torgersen’s, which come, I think, from a position of frustration and pain.
And the destructive tactics elsewhere elicit frustrated responses here, to Jim Hines, who is a thoughtful, considerate, self-examined writer. I think Jim Hines will keep posting even when the conversation gets angry, but other writers with less psychic armor will withdraw from the conversation. In this way the destructive behavior of a small group spreads far.
Brad R. Torgersen
September 27, 2010 @ 11:57 am
I have a strong Devil’s Advocate streak, especially if I think the person being targetted hasn’t done a damn thing wrong. But I won’t belabor the Moon issue any further on your blog, since we’re obviously in very different places on whether or not she did something egregious.
Jim C. Hines
September 27, 2010 @ 12:03 pm
Oh, I understand that. While I disagree with you, I get that you feel the urge to speak out publicly for something you believe in. It just baffles me to see you simultaneously attacking others for speaking out publicly for things they believe in.
And before you tell me that “they” are over the top or insulting, please look at some of the language you’ve used to describe those individuals.
But yes, I’d prefer not to keep going back and forth with you on this, since I don’t imagine it’s going to go anywhere productive.
Brad R. Torgersen
September 27, 2010 @ 1:51 pm
If Jim will permit me to comment on this,
My experience with the FaceRailers — my word, as turnabout on their behavior — is that too many of them seem to think they owe not one iota of civility towards those with whom they disagree. Because the FaceRailers, especially at LiveJournal, presume to hold the absolute moral high ground, and those who don’t accomodate FaceRailer ideological arrogance on matters of race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, etc, tend to get mobbed and slagged in a very school-yard kind of approach to “dialogue” about these issues.
Having experienced this first-hand and witnessed other authors experience it, my overall opinion of that group of “activists” and their LiveJournal hangers-on is quite poor. Mainly because they demand a level of respect (obeisance?) for their own opinions which they never reserve for anyone else’s opinions. As an SF writer and the white partner in an interracial marriage of almost 20 years, I consider the FaceRail crowd and its LiveJournal component detrimental to constructive discussion of race (and other issues) in Science Fiction.
So perhaps I chose to engage Jim on this blog because I don’t consider Jim a “failer” or a “railer” and I was concerned because it seemed (to me, seemed, I am treading carefully here) that Jim was following along with the FaceRailers (RE: beating up on Moon) and this bothered me enough to comment on Jim’s blog.
For the record, because I don’t know Jim personally, but respect his accomplishments as an author and a previous WOTF winner, I’m not trying to piss Jim off. Though I understand if during discussion Jim has gotten pissed. Hey Jim, my bad. I think you probably caught the gust of some of my pre-existing umbrage with previous players in the roulette of “fail” that’s been spinning ever-faster the last two years.
No hard feelings, sir. My beef is with others, who are not you, and I don’t hold you responsible for what they specifically — the FaceRailers — have said or done.
Skennedy
September 27, 2010 @ 3:55 pm
I wrote a bunch, but I’ll cut it down to size by saying that it is always unfortunate that in a discussion with thousands of people, rude voices tend to rise to the top.
I do not have an opinion on Moon’s authorial writing, because I have not read it. I -do- have an opinion of her comments, and they’re not related to the “fail” epithet that’s been going around – I just think telling people they can’t have their own cultural identity within the U.S., especially if they were born here and chose that identity themselves, is a big mistake, and contrary to my own vision of America.
I’d like to think my opinion’s a reasonable one (and one worthy of debate), despite keeping my blog in a “haven of anonymous poo-flingers”.
I think we should all agree that the suffix -fail deserves the same shameful death -gate has received. It’s a smug and presumptuous label, in my opinion.
Lori S.
September 28, 2010 @ 1:39 pm
Do note the false dichotomy between reason and emotion operating here. I take your general points, but reason and emotion are not mutually exclusive. “Cool-headed” is not a synonym for “logical.”
Lori S.
September 28, 2010 @ 1:43 pm
Those sort of posts elicit responses like Brad Torgersen’s, which come, I think, from a position of frustration and pain.
And why does Torgerson’s frustration and pain get a pass when the “RaceFail cadre”‘s don’t? Double standard much?
Resa
September 28, 2010 @ 4:31 pm
Lori S.
I am neither giving anyone a pass nor applying any double standards. I am astonished and bemused that you could legitimately come to any such conclusion.
Anna
September 28, 2010 @ 6:08 pm
Jaymee’s using sarcasm.
Lori S.
September 29, 2010 @ 2:35 am
Hint: in your eyes, the “Racefail cadre” are using “destructive tactics,” and acting “downright not the way my Mom would have expected decent persons to behave”; Torgerson is merely expressing his pain in reaction. You’ve excused his behavior as coming from a place of pain. Do you similarly excuse “Racefail cadre” of the same? Because trust me, many of their posts also come from a place of pain. If not: double standard. If so, say so.
Resa
September 29, 2010 @ 9:12 am
Lori S.
I will not make any apologia for my post or reply to you further. You misread; I have nothing else to say to you.