Worldcon Expels Truesdale
For anyone claiming the recording Truesdale made without anyone’s knowledge or consent somehow vindicates him, or that he only hijacked the first few minutes of the panel, here’s what I heard from Truesdale’s own recording:
- It begins with introductions
- Then Dave starts reading his “Special Snowflakes” treatise
- After five minutes of this, Sheila Williams cut in and began shooting him down
- Dave pipes in a minute later to try to ask, “But what about conservative SF?” Williams keeps going.
- About nine minutes in, Neil Clarke points out that they’re still off-topic, and gets yelled at by random loud dude in the audience.
- Eleven minutes in, Truesdale says he wasn’t finished. Gordon Van Gelder points out they’re off topic.
- Truesdale tries yet again to get back to the evils of political correctness. Sheila Williams shoots him down again.
- Fifteen minutes in, Truesdale goes off about “a certain group” of bullies who can’t stand disagreement and will crucify you for having other opinions.
- After another minute and a half of this, Williams and others once again try to respond and get back on focus.
- Twenty minutes in, Truesdale starts talking about this one anthology editor who produced a mostly/all-male anthology and got crucified, and why it wasn’t his fault, and–
- Several people try to respond and refocus.
- About twenty-two minutes in, Wiscon is mentioned. Predictably, Truesdale takes a jab at Wiscon.
- Jonathan Strahan defends Wiscon and talks about the goal of listening to *more* people, not fewer.
- Twenty-five minutes in, Truesdale continues to talk about how there’s too much intimidation “from the left.”
- Gordon Van Gelder points out, again, that the panel continues to be off-topic.
I stopped listening at this point, because I’d heard more than enough. Listening to his own recording, the man hijacked at least half the panel for his own personal crusade.
###
Follow-up blog post at http://www.jimchines.com/2016/08/more-worldcon-thoughts/ (You knew I’d end up doing a follow-up on this one, right?)
###
Updates since I posted this:
- A commenter at File770 gives another account, suggesting that this was a deliberate and preplanned hijacking on Truesdale’s part.
- Truesdale has announced that he recorded the panel (without permission), and will be posting it at Tangent Online, along with an article about his full remarks.
- This seems to confirm, if there was still any doubt, how much pre-planning Truesdale put into hijacking the panel.
- MidAmeriConII posted a brief statement about Truesdale’s expulsion, noting that he was kicked out for violating the con’s code of conduct. Specifically, he caused “significant interference with event operations and caused excessive discomfort to others.”
###
Just catching up on today’s Worldcon drama. It began when Worldcon selected Dave Truesdale to moderate a panel on the State of Short Fiction. Instead, it’s been reported that Truesdale used the first 10 minutes of the panel for “a 10 minute monologue on how ‘special snowflakes’ who are easily offended are destoying SF.” (Source) He was literally clutching bead necklaces that he called “pearls.” Some people walked out of the audience. Other panelists shot Truesdale’s assertions down and tried to get the panel back on topic. Basically, it sounds like a mess.
This morning, over on Facebook, Truesdale shared an email he says he received from the convention, revoking his membership for his “unacceptable behavior” during that panel.
To be clear, I’m not at Worldcon. I didn’t see first-hand what happened on this panel. (I have read multiple reports from folks in the audience and others on the panel.) It does sound like Truesdale acted like an ass, derailed the panel, and pissed off a lot of people who wanted to, you know, talk about the state of short fiction.
As you might have guessed, I have thoughts about all this…
- Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put Dave Truesdale in charge of this panel? He’s been doing these rants for years, if not decades. How can the convention turn around and pretend to be shocked by his pearl-clutching derail when that’s pretty much who he is and what he’s known for?
- I’ve seen panel derails and blow-ups before. People have gotten into shouting matches, walked off of panels, and so on. I’ve never heard of someone being kicked out of the con for it. (Not invited back as a panelist, sure. Kicked out? Maybe it’s happened, but it’s not a practice I’m aware of.)
- Right now, we have only Truesdale’s post about him being kicked out. It’s possible there’s more to this than just his ridiculous behavior on that panel.
- As Truesdale has gone public with this, I hope Worldcon will issue a statement clarifying why he was expelled from the convention, and whether he violated convention policies either on the panel or elsewhere.
- ETA: From the Worldcon Code of Conduct: “MidAmeriCon II reserves the right to revoke membership from and eject anyone at any time from a MidAmeriCon II event without a refund. Any action or behavior that … adversely affects MidAmeriCon II’s relationship with its guests, its venue, or the public is strictly forbidden and may result in revocation of membership privileges.“
I think we’ve all seen people derail panels for their own personal agendas. Truesdale’s moderation might have been an epic shitshow, but is it grounds for expulsion?
Like I said, we don’t have all the facts on this. Just people’s comments on the panel, and Truesdale’s own account of why he was kicked out. But it sounds like a mess.
Dan
August 23, 2016 @ 6:09 pm
A defense of the Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy of Wisconsin, may he rest in peace, is in order here, because his name is being sullied entirely too much in this thread. Senator McCarthy was admittedly exuberant and not always accurate, but Communists in the 20th century did actually kill 100 million people and we were at war with the Soviet Union and there were a lot of actual infiltrators.
To compare him to these SJWs who face no threat of any substance that I can make out is entirely unfair to the Senator.
Dan
August 23, 2016 @ 6:14 pm
I just re-read my comment and I apologize that it may have been triggering. I realize now that many readers here are still grieving that the Cold War was lost.
Jim C. Hines
August 23, 2016 @ 6:22 pm
Dan – I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish at this point, save to burn any credibility or respect people might have been willing to grant you.
Maybe it was an attempt at being clever, I don’t know. But you’re just acting like a dick. Knock it off.
Dan B
August 23, 2016 @ 6:24 pm
Dan,
Judging from these two comments, you appear to be a mediocre historian and an even worse mind-reader.
Greg
August 23, 2016 @ 6:53 pm
Proof is the responsibility of those making the claim, and since you never proved Stross cited unnamed sources to assert he had committed face-to-face harrassment, except by intentionally misreadinv his text, that is a strawman.
How the HELL you make a living with the written word while so beligerently and intentionally misreading something as sime as Stross’ comment is beyond me. Do you work in propaganda? Because you certainly seem to be practicing the rule that if you say something often enough, people might just believe it is true.
Greg
August 23, 2016 @ 6:55 pm
“A defense of the Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy-”
Pretty much all I need to know….
Hauser
August 23, 2016 @ 7:04 pm
” I’m not saying either the Worldcon people who allegedly said this [Truesdale doing “face to face” harassment], or the Twitter people who reported it, did anything wrong”
Neither group did anything of the sort. Again, this is simple reading comp. The ConCom said they had no further comment. The “Twitter people” then reported this statement on Twitter, as people do on Twitter. Neither (at the time of writing) said anything about “face-to-face harassment”.
By “over-parsing”, you appear to mean that I am able to read and understand simple English phrases. I assume that you are not always so incapable of doing so, so I imagine that in this case your need to fight overcame your language centres, and that even if the red mist has now abated you have now dug yourself so deep that you cannot see any way of getting back out with dignity intact. So, you keep raising the stakes, in the hope that some salvation will come along.
Is this science fiction writer leaving a comment on another science fiction writer’s blog McCarthy? Of course! Goebbels? Why not? These names are being thrown out in desperation, like suitcases over the side of a sinking hot air balloon of argument.
Probably your only hope is that those able to read English and understand it will eventually conclude that you simply cannot, and thus that there is no profit in further conversation – that is, that they will conclude, based on your frenetic efforts to convince them of exactly this, that you are far, far less intellectually capable than you probably actually are. It is not much of a victory, but it’s probably your win state at this point.
Paul Levinson
August 23, 2016 @ 7:20 pm
Putting a word in all caps doesn’t make it true.
As to the issue at hand, here’s the gist of it, one more time:
What all of this boils down to for me is: I listened to Truesdale’s recording of the panel in question. Unless he doctored the recording – highly unlikely, from what I can hear – Truesdale said or did nothing at the panel that would warrant his expulsion from the Worldcon. That said, all that remains as justification for throwing him out is the speculation, implication, or whatever you might want to call it that he harassed someone, face to face. If that indeed happened, then fairness demands that people who experienced or witnessed the harassment step up and speak out. Otherwise, we’re left with innuendo, which is indeed a McCarthyesque tactic. I think whatever Stross’s intentions, that’s what his posts amount to.
Paul Levinson
August 23, 2016 @ 7:25 pm
Your resorting to a “tin foil” argument only reflects your lack of logic or evidence. This is at least the second time that you’ve responded with ad hominem attacks. In view of that, you, in particular will get no further responses from me (though I may always change my mind),
Chris Helps
August 23, 2016 @ 8:00 pm
Guys, just a suggestion. Don’t feed the Levinson-troll anymore – he’s consumed more than enough already, and we wouldn’t want him to get sick from overeating.
Paul Levinson
August 23, 2016 @ 8:06 pm
Chris – just a suggestion. Learn how to conduct a civil discourse. It will do wonders for your disposition.
Jim C. Hines
August 23, 2016 @ 8:17 pm
Folks, at this point, if the only reason you’re commenting is to try to score points or one-up someone else, I’d ask that you please not. It’s been a long 72 hours trying to keep up with comments here and elsewhere, and I’d really like to get back to focusing on this novel revision…
Thanks, all!
Sally
August 23, 2016 @ 9:35 pm
Isn’t this where someone needs to clutch pearls?
Kevin Denelsbeck
August 23, 2016 @ 9:37 pm
(I posted this earlier today on Larry Correia’s blog. I don’t regularly read anyone’s blog, kind of ended there [and here] through link-following.)
I listened to the whole taped panel. I don’t have a dog in this fight, more of an interested observer who reads everything and is a registered Independent. My takeaways are:
* I would be interested in hearing Truesdale’s whole argument, but he needed to practice it beforehand and be much more glib in getting it out. I think he was flustered by the sound issues at the beginning and that may have hurt any momentum he had built up in himself.
* If I were moderating such a panel and had a strong opinion on the panel topic, I would ask a generic opening question (such as “What is the biggest problem facing sf short fiction today?), let all the other panelists have a go first, then answer the question as I see things. As it turned out — and I think this was utterly predictable — by making such a pointed opening statement Truesdale *did* effectively hijack the panel.
* Truesdale seemed to be fair and generous after that point, encouraging other panelists to speak and not being combative. One panelist tended to wander a bit and probably could’ve used some gentle nudging moderation, but Truesdale handcuffed himself into noninterference lest he look too intolerant.
* Upshot: I wouldn’t have kicked Truesdale out of the con, but I wouldn’t let him moderate any more panels. Not because of his politics, but because he didn’t moderate correctly. A moderator’s job is to ask framing questions that let the panelists paint the canvas of the topic. From there, you can drill down on an interesting detail that is uncovered.
Kevin Denelsbeck
August 23, 2016 @ 9:38 pm
So sorry, just saw this as I posted. Delete my comment if you wish, np.
Jim C. Hines
August 23, 2016 @ 9:42 pm
No worries at all, Kevin. I appreciated your comment and thoughts, thank you.
My comment was mostly in regard to some threads that were just people jabbing back and forth and not going anywhere. It got tiresome. I wasn’t trying to shut down all discussion.
Kevin Denelsbeck
August 23, 2016 @ 10:13 pm
Thx.
HelenS
August 23, 2016 @ 11:02 pm
Oh, hey, Eleanor! I think I remember you also. Last saw you at L&M’s wedding, if you are the one I am thinking of. Hope all’s well with you, whichever Eleanor you are.
Also, well said.
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
August 23, 2016 @ 11:05 pm
It is useful when someone’s go-to insults are “do-gooders” and “social justice warriors.” It is helpful for me to know right up front that they are in favor of doing bad and proponents of social injustice.
When people tell you who they are, believe them.
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
August 23, 2016 @ 11:18 pm
But clutching pearls leaves such unsightly indentations on one’s palms.
roger tang
August 23, 2016 @ 11:29 pm
He’ll probably have to do it from someone else. You obviously aren’t a very good example.
roger tang
August 23, 2016 @ 11:31 pm
[Roger – please see my comment at http://www.jimchines.com/2016/08/worldcon-expels-truesdale/#comment-295315 Thanks. -Jim]
Greg
August 24, 2016 @ 10:32 am
When you provide “logic and evidence” as to how you get those unnamed twitter people tied to “face to face harrasment”, you let me know.
You keep quoting a sentence that ties twitter to the Con making no further comment, and then somehow that has something to do with a different sentence about face to face harrassment, in a way that makes sense to no one but you.
Greg
August 24, 2016 @ 10:39 am
It is interesting how the entire united states was in the cold war, yet only McCarthy used it as cover for a witchhunt. At best, dan, your point is that McCarthy was afraid, therefore any action he took was defensible.
Thats the sort of logic that Bush used to justify war crimes in the form of torture and trashing the constitution by spying on americans.
McCarthy’s witchhunts did nothing to stop the cold war, and Bushs torture and spy programs did nothing to stop terrorism. They were just a couple of ineffective cowards who wasted the nations resources.
WorldCon (aka MidAmericon) | CB's MoJo
August 24, 2016 @ 12:51 pm
[…] People hijacking panels to push their own agendas […]
Henry
August 24, 2016 @ 9:20 pm
Why should he? And since when is stating uncomfortable truths “pearl-clutching”? Pearl-clutching is reserved to those seeking to *suppress* the truth. Thank goodness Truesdale took the legal and justified precaution of recording the event, eh? :–)
Henry
August 24, 2016 @ 9:27 pm
Self-identified lawyer Rob commented on the audio recording: “Yes, the legality is ultimately a focus on the wrong issue. Something doesn’t have to rise to the level of a criminal offense in order to say it was wrong, disrespectful, a breach of etiquette, or what have you.”
Butt-hurt! Don’t forget the butt-hurt of people lying about what happened and what was said! That’s butt-hurt they shouldn’t have to endure! :–)
Dana Cline
August 24, 2016 @ 10:13 pm
Disclaimer: I was on MAC2 staff. However, what I am about to say is not their opinion, it is mine.
In the early days of online social media (CompuServe), we had one rule in our forums: Attack the idea, not the person posting it. We seem to have lost sight of that rule.
While I expect discussion, even heated discussion, my mom taught me at least one thing (didn’t yours?) – if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. Again, everyone seems to have lost that thought.
I was totally ignorant of what happened in this session, finding out about it here. It’s been interesting to follow.
Remember, it’s a hostile universe out there – we humans have to stick together.
Henry
August 25, 2016 @ 7:07 am
Is it also unethical to record cops abusing their power against innocent civilians Arguments about “ethics” are great as long as you get to proclaim what’s “ethical”.
Henry
August 25, 2016 @ 7:09 am
[Another comment turned into a goblin snack. Grieve not, fair readers. It’s gone to a better place now. -Jim]
Steve L
August 25, 2016 @ 2:30 pm
He has the right to speak. But Worldcon also has the right to show him the door.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
Steve L
August 25, 2016 @ 2:34 pm
Why should Jordan go elsewhere? Because Jim’s the one paying the bills for this blog and so Jim makes the rules. If Jordan wants a soapbox where he or she can say whatever he or she wants, let him or her buy one and set his or her own rules.
Anonymous Troll
August 26, 2016 @ 12:26 am
I agree completely, and would like to buy some other books from your store. Where is it? Do you have a website? Does it exist?
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:30 am
All this wailing and crying about how the panel was “recorded without consent.” Really, guys? If the panel was so gosh-darned secret, why did you hold it in a public in front of an audience at a convention anyone could attend?
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:33 am
“People are upset about the content, not the tone in which it was delivered.”
Then maybe “people” can debate that content, instead of running to the authorities to have the person who delivered it banned.
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:36 am
“When you’re demanding equal airtime with those whose voices have been excluded and minimized and disregarded over previous years, you’re reducing their ability to express themselves.”
It’s neat how it’s okay to silence Person A because Person B was marginalized by Person C decades ago. Doesn’t make a lot of sense, but hey, as long as you get to force your political opponents to shut up, right? Easier than debating them, that’s for sure!
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:38 am
It’s pretty clear that the reason someone recording this panel was being a “flaming asshole” is because the recording is really bad for you guys.
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:41 am
“So, to those who think women should stay out of fandom, or who should only be there when and where men want them, I say go to hell.”
You are speaking to literally nobody, FYI.
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:43 am
“Is anyone, literally anyone, questioning his legal right to record?” Literally six comments below yours, Hines is attempting to find some way to interpret the facts which makes Truesdale’s actions illegal. So, yes.
ThirteenthLetter
August 26, 2016 @ 1:45 am
Well, obviously that meant he deserved to be thrown out of the con, then. Making a four-minute opening statement at a convention panel? Dude’s lucky they didn’t call the cops on him!
Ann
August 26, 2016 @ 4:03 am
I don’t condone shouting matches as we call them in good old England, but the gentleman does have a point; the “arts” are (in general) terribly dominated by self-satisfied leftie luvvies…
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 6:58 am
[Accusations of “thought-nazis” have been eaten by goblins. -Jim]
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 7:02 am
[Henry seems to think that if he repeats himself enough times and hurls enough insults, suddenly he’ll be Right and everyone will agree with him. Sadly, it looks like the goblins have begun eating his comments. What a loss to society. -Jim]
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 7:06 am
Uh…Gary…get a clue? How many decades have *you* edited a science fiction review magazine that many thousands of people read?
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 7:18 am
Indeed. Manufactured outrage, sound and fury, based on nothing and signifying nothing. (Sigh.)
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 7:23 am
So? The two were engaging in a discussion, one disagreed with the other, and the announced subject matter was being addressed. So why all the butthurt? Oh…the SJW narrative was challenged. Well in *that* case, of *course* throw him out!
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 7:28 am
Celia, you note that he was “directly insulting to some of the audience and panelists” and he “actively and intentionally made the space uncomfortable for some people, and that is unacceptable.”
God forbid that any of that should be allowed. It shouldn’t! Absolutely unacceptable. Throw him out. Silence him.
Henry
August 26, 2016 @ 7:38 am
“I realize now that many readers here are still grieving that the Cold War was lost.” You mean they’re grieving that the Cold War was lost by the thought-control dictators, the communists. SJW’s of their time.
ctein
August 26, 2016 @ 3:39 pm
Dear 13,
It as not a public event, it was a private one with rules of conduct that everyone was required to adhere to, as a condition of attending. One of those rules regarded recording without consent and publishing recordings. Truesdale intentionally violated that rule.
That is what the “wailing and crying” is about, nothing more. It is sufficient.
Also, since you seem to be shot on a few clues, it’s not a legal issue, it’s not a First Amendment issue and the excuse “Well, I was being attacked and had to defend myself” does not cut it.
Frankly, given that the guy has now shown himself to be a repeat offender, if I were running a con, I’d simply decline to accept his membership unless I had a personal, signed letter from him saying he’d abide by the rules of my convention.
pax / Ctein
ctein
August 26, 2016 @ 3:40 pm
(damn, but I hate autocorrect– sorry for the typoes)
Jim C. Hines
August 26, 2016 @ 5:49 pm
So you saw Dan acting like a dick and decided, “Hey, that looks like something I want to do too!”?
All righty then. You can keep Dan company in the moderation queue. Maybe the two of you can whine about how I’m oppressing all of your free speech or something.
Jim C. Hines
August 26, 2016 @ 5:52 pm
I’ll just note that for someone who was allegedly silenced, Truesdale and his followers seem to be making a hell of a lot of noise.
Jim C. Hines
August 26, 2016 @ 5:55 pm
“…many thousands of people read”
[Citation Needed]
Jim C. Hines
August 26, 2016 @ 5:58 pm
“You guys”?
Y’all realize I’m an individual author, not a book-producing empire like James Patterson, right? Though that would be pretty awesome. An entire team churning out wave after wave of goblin vs. fairy tale princess books…
…I have to go email my agent a new proposal.
Steve
August 28, 2016 @ 9:20 pm
I found the timeline above to be inaccurate. Within the first 300 seconds, he gave his definition of Snowflakes, he stated that he felt that Science Fiction is not only currently a home for diversity but that it has been one. Finally, he stated that if a story doesn’t follow a specific guideline, the author is often discriminated against and bullied. Then Neil turned his back on Dave, kind of making the point. Sheila talked for awhile, but from that point forward Dave was more than reasonable. The other panelists brought it up again, which was when he’d pointed out that he wasn’t done with it, that he was going to tie it all in. Then Neil asked him to tie it all in. And the funny bit? If you were listening, even NEIL agreed that certain stories lately have been ‘bland.’ O.o Freedom of speech includes the freedom not to listen, of course, and it was interesting seeing this man’s unpopular view vindicated after a fashion. Of course, that didn’t stop WorldCon staff from kicking the man out, as well as the one man in the crowd who actively supported him (in spite of Truesdale himself telling said man, and all others, to wait until Q & A for questions).
Of Goats and Greens
August 29, 2016 @ 2:00 pm
Awesome post, Kevin. I haven’t been to a Worldcon since Glasgow 1996, and have never heard of Truesdale until this point. Like you, no dog in this fight. What I remember of moderators (true in SF and elsewhere) though, is that while they can speak of where their heads lay, and their own agendas, they need to step back and moderate professionally. I can see never asking him on a panel again — this WAS a panel, I believe — but from the evidence I’ve read to this point, I don’t see that kicking him out was the proper response, either.
Elin Noy
August 30, 2016 @ 2:42 pm
They _say_ the recording was without permission. However, we all know that this kind of panels in general are recorded, and that the participants are prepared for that. You don’t need very much intelligence to understand that this accusation is pure hypocrisy.
Jim C. Hines
August 30, 2016 @ 3:44 pm
The density of Wrongness in such a short comment is impressive.
1. If you have evidence that the panel gave permission, please share. Otherwise, your first sentence is nonsense.
2. “This kind of panels in general are recorded.” Well, no. That’s simply untrue.
3. “The panelists are prepared for that.” Given the objections at least one panelist has made to the recording, this also seems to be blatantly counterfactual.
4. Closing with an insult to other people’s intelligence after such an impressive concentration of being wrong? I’ll give you this much — that takes guts.
ctein
August 30, 2016 @ 6:22 pm
Dear Elin,
It doesn’t take very much intelligence to read the convention’s Code of Conduct, especially as seeing that Jim provided a clear link to it. So, let’s read aloud, together, now:
“Personal Photography / Recordings:
Please be polite and ask before taking photographs or recordings of attendees and members whenever possible. Remember that just because someone is in costume does not mean that they are automatically granting permission to be photographed. Video and audio recording and photography for personal archival use only is generally acceptable unless individuals make it clear that they do not want to be photographed or recorded. In that case, any photographing or recording them is expressly forbidden.”
Do you need help with understanding that? If so, customer service reps are standing by.
When Truesdale made it known to the other panelists he was recording this, he was clearly and explicitly refused permission by at least one panel member. This is on the record.
Oh, and even if you WERE right (which you so obviously are not), the word “hypocrisy” doesn’t mean what you think it does. Try to avoid using words that are beyond your skill set; it only makes you look silly.
pax / Ctein
Kevin Denelsbeck
August 31, 2016 @ 12:21 pm
Appreciate the kind words. It amazes me how many folks don’t understand the hat you have to wear when you moderate. They might first look at the verb “moderate”.
Elin Noy
August 31, 2016 @ 4:21 pm
Dear,
1. Read and understand what I write: It is always implied, and it is never ever a big thing.
2. Yes, they are often recorded. Which you know very well, as anybody else.
3. Yes, ofcourse they are prepared for recording, because it often happen and is implied.
4. Of course I can “insult” people a tiny little bit in a heated discussion like this; it is not only you and your side that have right to insult Pro-Dave-fans with accsations about fascism, nazism, racism, misogynism etc. If it is okey for your side to insult, you must tolerate the same from the other side. That’s logic. Dear.
Jim C. Hines
August 31, 2016 @ 4:27 pm
Repeating yourself and adding another layer of condescension doesn’t actually change the fact that you’re wrong, either as a result of ignorance, or because you’re flat-out lying. I don’t know which, nor do I particularly care.
And yes, of course you can insult people. And when you insult people’s intelligence after demonstrating you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, it escalates how foolish you look to those of us who do convention panels all the time and know how they generally work.
You’ve made your point. You’ve repeated yourself. You’ve given no evidence or information to back it up. Unless you’ve got something new to contribute, it’s time for you to go away.
Elin Noy
August 31, 2016 @ 4:28 pm
Read your own citation: It is about general visitorsand members, not about panels. So you are obviously wrong.
It is pure hypocrisy when people pretend the recording was such a big thing. In another panel nobody should care, and they never do. It is never ever a big thing, except this time. And I promise you, we all know this.
Jim C. Hines
August 31, 2016 @ 4:35 pm
“It is about general visitors and members, not about panels…”
Who exactly do you think is sitting on those panels, if not attendees and members of the convention? Have you ever even attended a SF/F convention like Worldcon, because the cluelessness is getting pretty thick?
Anyway, like I said above, repeating yourself doesn’t magically make your words true, and it’s time for you to be done.
Elin Noy
September 1, 2016 @ 6:13 am
Dear Hines,
Don’t make yourself more stupid than you are. Everybody understand totally well what I wrote and meant, about thedistinction between the public in general and the panels. You are a discussion saboteur, a trolling moderator, not interested in a serious discussion, exactly like the people who tried to shut down Dave in the panel and in the end banned him from the congress. Shame on you, hypocrite.
Jim C. Hines
September 1, 2016 @ 8:44 am
See, this is why I have a moderation queue on my blog. Because entertaining as it is to watch Elin ignore questions, dictate what “everybody” knows, and generally devolve into spewing insults, there’s nothing new here. It’s basically the online equivalent of a child throwing himself to the floor and crying because they lost a game of checkers.
And some of us have better things to do with our time.
ctein
September 1, 2016 @ 7:48 pm
Dear folks,
Well, now that Elin has left the building (presumably accompanied by Elvis and other figments of his imagination), it occurs to me that some people reading this blog may not actually be familiar with WorldCon or how it works. Allow me to explain (in longissimus, non legi form):
Fan-run SFF conventions like WorldCon are a different beast from the commercial media cons that bring in paid entertainment/celebrities to perform before an audience. At the “regular” kind of con, everyone who wears a badge allowing them to be present at the convention is a “member” or “attendee” of the convention. That’s a quasi-legal definition. It includes staff, the featured Guests of Honor, mere Filthy Pros like myself, Jim, or… just to pull a name out of thin air… Mary Robinette Kowal…, panelists and program participants, and all the rest of you sitting out the cheap seats [grin]. We are all members of the convention. That’s the fundamental and important working definition.
Depending upon our position, we may get different perks (beyond being allowed to attend) from the convention. It is customary for the convention to pay all the expenses for the Guests of Honor, travel, food and lodging, and a free (“comp”) membership. Some conventions will also cover that for a GoH’s plus-one. Beyond that, nobody gets a totally free ride, but every convention does things differently. Some conventions provide comp memberships to everybody who works the convention in any fashion, including panelists and program participants. Others (Minicon is an example) don’t provide that for anybody except the aforementioned GoH’s— even the convention chair has to buy her own membership.
The custom for WorldCons in recent years (it is only the custom; any WorldCon committee could decide to do differently in the future) is that most of them do not comp memberships in advance. We Filthy Pros and panelists and program participants have to buy our memberships just like the hoi polloi. If the convention makes a profit, which most (but not all) of them do, they will usually refund our membership money after the books are balanced. But there’s no guarantees and no promises made. That’s the total extent to which we get special treatment.
Now, regarding Codes Of Conduct. Unless a COC specifically exempts some group of members, it applies to ALL members of the convention. That’s the way MACII’s COC was written. I don’t in fact know of any COC that does otherwise. Oh sure, there’s nothing to keep a concom from writing one that would exempt us Filthy Pros and still require all the rest of you folks to follow it, but you can guess how well that would go over. There is stupid and then there is suicidal.
This is why Jim and I were giving Elin such a hard time. He kept doubling down on the idea that panelists and program participants were somehow entitled to follow different rules from what the COC spelled out. That is blatantly untrue; it’s an opinion that is entirely divorced from reality.
Sure, he can put together a convention that runs that way… But that wasn’t the one we attended.
As an obvious counterexample to Elin’s cluelessness, Mary got a day’s suspension for entirely consensual drinking on a panel, and nobody, nowhere, has suggested that she shouldn’t have been subject to the COC (And, PLEASE, don’t start debating the appropriateness of the punishment here. Jim has enough to do. Plus, it would be so beside the point.)
Everybody clear, now?
Oh, one last thing before I give up the microphone. This unsupported claim that someone went running to the concom, and demanded Truesdale be kicked out? Even if someone did that, the demand would be ignored. One of the basic tenants of a well-executed COC (and MACII’s was well-executed) is that the reporter does NOT get to determine the appropriate response or punishment. In many cases, they will not even be consulted. This is for the protection of the respondent and the reporter both.
Think of it like if you called the police because you saw someone breaking into a neighbor’s house. That’s the end of your involvement and obligation. You hand it over to the legal system, because you have neither the competence nor responsibility to be judge, jury, and executioner. There are other folks trained for that.
All right, done now. Carry on.
pax \ Ctein
[ Please excuse any word-salad. MacSpeech in training! ]
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