Puppies in Their Own Words
I’ve spent several hours on this, which is ridiculous. I don’t even know why, except that I’m frustrated by all of the “I never said…” “He really said…” “No he didn’t, you’re a lying liar!” “No, you’re the lying liar!” and so on.
An infinite number of monkeys have said an infinite number of things about the Hugos this year. People on all sides have said intelligent and insightful things, and people on all sides have said asinine things. The amount of words spent on this makes the Wheel of Time saga look like flash fiction. File770 has been doing an admirable job of posting links to the ongoing conversation.
I wanted to try to sort through the noise and hone in on what Correia and Torgersen themselves have been saying. As the founder and current leader, respectively, of the Sad Puppies, it seems fair to look to them for what the puppy campaign is truly about.
Sad Puppies I: Birth of Puppies: The Sad Puppies bit started with Larry Correia. He had used the tag a few times to criticize President Obama and argue about privilege before calling on his readers to nominate him for a Hugo in early 2013.
“[D]espite providing hours of explosion filled enjoyment to their readers, most pulp novelists will never be recognized by critics, and in fact, they will be abused by the literati elite.”
“Much like Michael Vick, literary critics hate pulp novelists and make them fight in vicious underground novelist fighting arenas. I actually did pretty good, until Dan Wells made a shiv from a sharpened spoon and got me in the kidney.”
Sad Puppies 1 wasn’t about slate voting; it was simply an author promoting himself and some folks he liked for Hugos. Some bits may trigger eye-rolling; other parts were amusing to read. The whole thing was clearly framed as pulp writers/explosions/excitement vs. the snobbish literary message-loving elite.
“[I]f Monster Hunter Legion were to become a Hugo finalist, elitist literary snobs around the world would have a complete come apart that something which was unabashed pulp, had an actual plot, had characters who actually did stuff, and wasn’t heavy handed message fiction dared tread into their sacred halls.” (Source)
In the end, Correia did not get nominated, though some of his recommendations did. It’s interesting to note that even then, Correia referred to it as a “stacking campaign.”
“So the Sad Puppies Hugo stacking campaign was a success for almost everybody else I pushed, but me…” (Source)
Sad Puppies II: Revenge of Puppies: Correia returned to Sad Puppies again in 2014, with the same anti-literati message.
“[Y]ou can support awesome books winning fancy Hugo awards and drive the literati insane! … No more boring, pretentious literati-wannabe dreck! … Vote for Warbound!” (Source)
“The ugly truth is that the most prestigious award in sci-fi/fantasy is basically just a popularity contest, where the people who are popular with a tiny little group of WorldCon voters get nominated and thousands of other works are ignored. Books that tickle them are declared good and anybody who publically deviates from groupthink is bad. Over time this lame ass award process has become increasingly snooty and pretentious…” (Source)
Really, the whole thing seemed to come down to Larry thinking bad, boring, pretentious stories keep winning Hugos over good, fun, pulp stories like his, so he’s calling upon his readers to vote for him and people like him, and to make literari head explodes in the process.
This time, Larry described his picks as a slate.
“Almost the entire rest of the Sad Puppy 2 slate has been nominated.” (Source)
He also got more explicit about the political motivations.
“I said a chunk of the Hugo voters are biased toward the left, and put the author’s politics far ahead of the quality of the work. Those openly on the right are sabotaged. This was denied. So I got some right wingers on the ballot.” (Source)
Among other people on Correia’s Sad Puppy 2 slate was Vox Day, who would go on to run Rabid Puppies in 2015.
Sad Puppies III: The Apupolypse Begins: In 2015, Correia handed the torch to Brad Torgersen, who said:
“I am going to slowly compile a slate. Of books and stories (and other things, and people) for the different categories. So that hopefully deserving works and artists — who tend to be snubbed at awards season — get a chance on the final ballot.” (Source)
One of Brad’s arguments was that Worldcon didn’t represent fandom as a larger whole. He posted a Venn Diagram suggesting that most Worldcon attendees aren’t even fans. (While Worldcon is a very small percentage of fandom as a whole, to suggest that most of them aren’t fans is rather silly.)
Like Larry before him, Brad saw this in part as a political battle, but also claimed to want to get worthy authors onto the ballot regardless of political ideology.
“[T]he voting body of ‘fandom’ have tended to go in the opposite direction: niche, academic, overtly to the Left in ideology and flavor, and ultimately lacking what might best be called visceral, gut-level, swashbuckling fun … To that end, SAD PUPPIES has basic objectives: Get works and authors onto the Hugo ballot who might not otherwise be there; regardless of political persuasion.” (Source)
Evolution of the Sad Puppies III Slate: A number of folks have asked exactly how the slate was put together in 2015. Brad mentions soliciting suggestions, and said, “I’ve had a great many very good suggestions, and I am mulling the potential list now.” (Source)
The final slate was announced on his blog on February 1, noting, “If you agree with our slate below — and we suspect you might — this is YOUR chance to make sure YOUR voice is heard.”
So who made the final decision in this process? One commenter on Brad’s site noted:
“This list was generated by Brad Torgersen, Larry Correia, and a few other authors. Their fans have been suggesting various works, but, ultimately, the decision of which works to include was solely that of the participating authors.”
This was neither confirmed nor denied by Brad, who claims, “SP3 is not a same-minded collective. We’ve actually had a tremendous amount of internal debate about how to proceed.” But who the “SP3 Brain Trust” includes is never clarified. Brad mentions only Larry Correia and Vox Day in that same post.
Unlike the prior two years, Sad Puppies III presented a relatively full slate, with four or five nominees in most categories. While Torgersen suggests this list was a democratic group decision, a spreadsheet posted on Google docs suggests that most of the Sad Puppy candidates were not mentioned at all in the brainstorming blog posts, and were either suggested by other means, or else were the personal choices of Brad, Larry, and Vox. There have been many questions about this, and despite Brad’s claims of transparency, I’m not aware of Brad having answered them. (I’m happy to update this if I’m mistaken.)
Updates – Two comments from Brad:
“[A]t this stage, how the slate was assembled, doesn’t really matter. The facts of the assembly have been out there since Day 1 and if you still have a problem with that … oh well.” (Source)
“[I]f you can use the internet, you can Google (within 30 seconds) the original announcement, and the request for suggestions, see the many responses in the blog thread, etc. It was a mish-mash of comments and e-mails from various sources.” (Source – Screencapped)
The Unraveling: In the beginning of Sad Puppies III, I was hoping Torgersen would try to pull things up out of the mud. Over time, he seems to have gone in the opposite direction. By February 18, he was bashing John Scalzi for what he perceived as a slight against Baen. Then there was a shot against Nick Mamatas. He put forth CHORFS as an acronym for Cliquish, Holier-than-thou, Obnoxious, Reactionary, Fanatics. He designated Teresa Nielsen Hayden as the CHORF Queen in a rather lengthy and over-the-top rant after Nielsen Hayden (correctly) pointed out that the Hugos are representative of Worldcon, not fandom as a whole.
TNH: When I say the Hugos belong to the worldcon, I’m talking about the literal legal status of the award. But I also know that one of the biggest reasons the rocket is magic is because it spiritually belongs to all of us who love SF.
Brad: You hear that, fans? We don’t count. The Hugo is Teresa’s personal prize. Hers, and that of the other TruFen and CHORFs. (Source)
To be fair, people were absolutely talking crap about Torgersen, too. There was crap-talking on all sides. Just like you had people in Torgersen’s blog threatening to dox folks from the “anti-puppy” side, calling them “pussy,” and so on. But Torgersen is the Head Puppy this year, and this is part of how he chose to shape Sad Puppies.
He also reaffirmed his connection to Vox Day, saying, “I don’t mind being linked to Vox, because I don’t hate and fear Vox like a little schoolgirl who’s been stung by a wasp.”
Over time, Brad began talking less about recognizing worthy authors and more about his perceived persecution and fear in the genre, his imagined war against the CHORFS, the SJWs, and so on:
Me? My cohorts in Sad Puppies? … We’re done with playing the game. We’re calling out the fear-mongers and we’re saying, ‘Go to hell, you can’t stop us, because you were never as powerful as you thought you were.’ And it’s true. A lot of this correctness crap is a tissue. A smokescreen. The CHORFs, the Social Justice scolds, the taste-maker poseurs, et al., it’s like an overlapping venn diagram of noxious people…” (Source)
He also refused to accept that people could disagree with slate and bloc voting, describing Sad Puppies as a “peasant revolution” and claiming, “100% of the opposition to SP3 can be distilled down to that single concept: snobbery.” (Source)
As word of the Sad Puppy sweep of the Hugo ballot spread, larger media outlets picked up on it, many of them unfavorably, and some of them in aggressively critical ways. Brad saw this as further evidence of conspiracy:
“I suspect some of the insider SF/F people who dislike Sad Puppies 3 decided that the best way to “win” the insider baseball argument, was to stage a broader media flare-up for the sake of fatally discrediting the “poster people” of Sad Puppies 3.” (Source)
His blog posts got more over-the-top, comparing voting No Award to the Judgement of Solomon, likening fandom to a Gulag, and even trying to link it all to 9/11.
He began accusing “The Left” and CHORFs of hounding nominees off the ballots, even when those nominees explicitly stated this wasn’t the case.
Brad: Nobody should have to be afraid of being on a list of suggestions. But Juliette (and a few others) were. Because they didn’t want to be punished for an association. Brilliant, folks! Just brilliant. Let’s make hard-working authors afraid of having the “wrong” people put those authors forward, for recognition.
Brad: You know, 1984 wasn’t supposed to be an owners manual. Juliette’s one of Analog’s bright stars. I think she deserves a Hugo. She was upset because she realized she was going to become a target — a target for the CHORFs. As soon as that hit her, she came to me and requested to be pulled. I think she’s honest about not understanding the “slate” and SP3 were the same thing. But her motivation for wanting off was all about fear. She didn’t want to have to deal with the Peoples Republic of Science Fiction’s version of the NKVD.
Juliette: Brad Torgersen, you are pretty brazen, trying to speak for me, and I would appreciate it if you never attempted to do so again. I was entirely unaware of the Sad Puppy connection … I guess I was too idealistic, thinking that Sad Puppies might be over and that you would just be talking to me about some Hugo recommendations … Just to be clear, you have clearly got no idea of my motivations and are trying to spin them to your benefit … I would never, ever have wanted to associate with Sad Puppies after last year, because of the depth of my anger over their behavior. I felt sick that you had deceived me and betrayed my confidence, and the fact that you denied having done so is irrelevant. You, and your actions, were what I was avoiding in pulling myself off the list.
I know how much time I lost on this post. I can’t imagine how much time Brad has invested in all of his blog posts, and showing up on other Facebook posts, blog posts, and on Twitter to argue with people. It feels obsessive. (And I say that having written a 2800-word post on the subject.) It looks to me like Brad’s primary focus with Sad Puppies isn’t to promote good works so much as it is to argue with everyone.
The Real Problems:
Here are some of the things Brad has pointed to as problems with the Hugo awards and fandom.
“The Hugos especially have become prone to focusing on issues-first fiction. If not outright tokenism and affirmative action, for the sake of the sexuality, gender, and ethnicity of the authors themselves. In those cases, the content of the story is practically irrelevant. It’s the box-checking that counts.” (Source)
“[T]he Worldcon tribe — or at least certain vocal members within the tribe — have gone full-retard-tribal about the affront to “their” award, and “their” convention. So it’s tribe-vs-tribe. Are you in-tribe or out-tribe?” (Source)
“maybe just be wholly transparent and call it White American Liberals Con — An inclusive, diverse place where everyone talks about the same things, has the same tastes, votes the same way, and looks at the world through the same pair of eyes. Whitelibbycon. With the trophy: whitelibbyrocket.” (Source)
“I am pretty sure the point of Sad Puppies 3 was to make the final ballot more inclusive, not less … Oh, SP3 pointedly criticized affirmative action — which makes demographics paramount over content and quality.” (Source)
“We (Sad Puppies Inc.) threatened nothing, demanded nothing, and closed no doors in any faces. We threw the tent flaps wide and beckoned to anyone and everyone: come on in, join the fun! The Puppy-kickers have threatened and demanded a great deal. They most certainly do not want the “wrong” fans being allowed to participate in “their” (the Puppy-kickers’) award.” (Source)
“It wasn’t about dialing the field back to the Golden Age as much as it was about using the extant democratic process to broaden the extent of the Hugo’s coverage; to include Hugo-worthy works (and authors, and editors, and artists) who’d ordinarily fall into the blind spots. And let’s be clear: the Hugo selection process in 2015 does have blind spots. Such as the consistent bias against tie-in novels and tie-in novel authors…” (Source)*
*It should be noted that Brad included zero tie-in works on the 2015 Sad Puppy slate.
Racism/Sexism:
A number of people have talked about racism/sexism and the puppies. Some directly accused Brad et al of being racist, sexist, etc. Others pointed to the number of racists, sexists, and bigots among the slates. I pointed out that the puppies had reversed a five-year trend toward gender balance in the Hugo awards.
“[T]he narrative is stupid. That Sad Puppies 3 is sexist, racist, etc. It was stupid when it was concocted. It remains stupid. It was stupid the second Entertainment Weekly stepped on its own tongue, after being spoon-fed an uproariously amateurish and error-festooned hit piece, by parties who have no regard for facts, and who were eager to smear Sad Puppies 3 and everyone associated with it.” (Source)
Part of this aspect seems to be disagreement about what constitutes racism, etc. Brad hasn’t been out burning crosses or anything. Indeed, he pointed out that he’s married to a black woman. The puppy slates included women and non-white authors.
So are Brad and Larry racist? Sexist? Homophobic? What about their slates?
I don’t see an active or conscious effort to shut out authors who aren’t straight white males.
I do see that the effect of the slates was to drastically reduce the number of women on the final ballots.
Torgersen made a now-infamous homophobic remark about John Scalzi, which he later apologized for. I don’t see this as suggesting Torgersen is a frothing bigot; it does suggest he has some homophobic attitudes or beliefs he should probably reexamine and work on.
More central to the Sad Puppies, when I see Brad railing against “affirmative action” fiction, I see a man who seems utterly incapable of understanding sometimes people write “non-default” characters not because they’re checking off boxes on a quota, but because those are the stories they want to tell, and the characters they want to write about. Dismissing all of those amazing, wonderful, and award-winning stories as nothing but affirmative-action cases? Yeah, that sounds pretty bigoted to me.
#
Most folks already know I think both puppy campaigns are nonsense, and their claims that they’re just doing what “the other side” used to do are wishful thinking with no evidence or basis in reality than I’ve seen. I’ve been remarkably unimpressed with most of the puppy-nominated work I’ve read so far. (One of their recs in Best Related Work doesn’t actually appear to be at all related to SF/F.) I’ll be voting accordingly, and presumably so will the rest of the voters.
There’s a lot more to it all, I know. But I’ve got deadlines, and can’t afford to spend even more time on this today. I’m sure some folks will complain that I’m cherry-picking, but I’ve done my best to find quotes that are either representative of the larger posts and comments, or else demonstrate that yes, so-and-so did say that thing you claim they didn’t say.
Enjoy what’s left of your weekend, folks!
Timothy Liebe
June 17, 2015 @ 3:13 am
I don’t know, @Lenora Rose – an Ad Hominem attack deserves one right back, if you ask me, so I gave the self-styled “Dr. Mauser” one.
Turnabout being fair play, and all that….
Timothy Liebe
June 17, 2015 @ 3:16 am
Well, I was a “C” student for a reason, @Lenora Rose – one being that I think Bending Over Backwards to be “Reasonable” to People Who So Clearly Don’t DESERVE It Actually Does More Harm Than Good, because it emboldens them to further Right Wing, Whinily Entitled White Male Belligerence and Bullying.
Best to SLAP! Some Respect into them when they’re still scared enough to take the hint….
Timothy Liebe
June 17, 2015 @ 3:25 am
:: I wish Torgersen no ill, myself, and I actively regret not being able to vote for some puppy picks.::
Well, given his response to John Scalzi’s commentary on the SP/RP controversy was to fling a homophobic crack at Scalzi, @Lenora Rose, I’d say you are a lot more tolerant than I am.
…Speaking of ad hominem attacks which you’re so fond of accusing me of, and why Brad Torgerson is Dead To Me.
Jim C. Hines
June 17, 2015 @ 7:41 am
You may think that, but while you’re here, let’s refrain from slapping and ad hominems. Thank you.
Timothy Liebe
June 17, 2015 @ 1:06 pm
Okay, @Jim C. Hines.
Obviously I disagree – but your board, your rules.
Sorry….
The Muttrix 7/1 | File 770
July 2, 2015 @ 12:26 am
[…] any way, excuse Tor’s actions. For Doherty to buy the Puppy party line–which has been thoroughly debunked so many times–indicates either that the publisher of a major genre imprint is unaware of the […]
m
July 15, 2015 @ 11:12 pm
why should he examine his prejudices? because you happen to disagree them? fuck off. you’re not important.
Jim C. Hines
July 16, 2015 @ 1:51 pm
Does anyone else wonder what people like this are thinking?
m came to a blog post that’s more than a month old, which means most people have stopped reading it. There are still some subscribers who’ll get the comment notification, but for the most part, m missed the bus on this conversation. So really, what’s the goal here?
Then let’s look at the first question. “Why should he examine his prejudices?”
Really? Why should someone examine their prejudices? The amount of ignorance and apathy packed into a question like that is mind-blowing. Why would anyone *not* want to examine their prejudices? Why would you think a lack of self-examination and introspection was a good thing? How can you be satisfied growing up, never having your assumptions challenged, never moving beyond the attitudes and prejudices you absorbed as a little kid? It’s sad.
As for the rest, well, that’s just disappointing. I expect better insults from my trolls. This one wasn’t even interesting enough to feed to the goblins.
kd lang
July 16, 2015 @ 1:54 pm
You can not stop the patriarchy. Our superiority is beyond contestation.
Jim C. Hines
July 16, 2015 @ 1:58 pm
That was a little better, m. Disconnected and a bit pointless, but a step up in terms of being interesting with your trolling.
steve davidson
July 16, 2015 @ 4:40 pm
Part immaturity, part boredom, part inability to deal with the real world, part unwillingness or lack of ability to deal with nuance. Part mean-spiritedness (largely of the “I’m not happy so you shouldn’t be either” variety).
I won’t get “political” here other than to note that in the US, it seems to me that one political strain is often heard saying things like “it’s either yes or no” or “there is no gray area” or other statements that suggest that they believe that every issue can be reduced to a very simple, narrow equation Which suggests that they are unable (intellectually, emotionally?) to handle complexity.
As an example: “why are we having some of the worst winter weather we’ve had when there’s supposed to be global warming?”
To the simple mind, warming means warming and any deviation from warming means there is no warming. (Not to mention that weather is local and “the worst winter ever” may only have taken place on one small patch of the Earth).
I don’t think they’re stupid as a class, but they do seem to exhibit an unwillingness to engage in intellectual activity, and thus we get “arguments” of an anti-intellectual nature.
More Skirmishes in the Genre Wars | Joe Follansbee
August 18, 2015 @ 11:32 pm
[…] days concerns the definition of “science fiction.” Traditionalists, who call themselves the Sad Puppies, have a stereotyped, populist view of science fiction, defined as technology-driven dramas and […]
Very draft: Kerfuffle timeline – Prelude to Kerfufflation | Camestros Felapton
August 19, 2015 @ 3:01 am
[…] Glyer’s puppy round ups ( http://file770.com/?page_id=22881), Jim C Hines’s article http://www.jimchines.com/2015/06/puppies-in-their-own-words/ and for some early stuff Sl Huang’s Timleine of SFWA controversies […]
Kerfuffle Timeline Part 2: The First Act | Camestros Felapton
August 21, 2015 @ 10:39 pm
[…] Mike Glyer’s puppy round ups ( http://file770.com/?page_id=22881), Jim C Hines’s article http://www.jimchines.com/2015/06/puppies-in-their-own-words/ , The Hugo Awards blog http://www.thehugoawards.org/, and the blogs of Larry Correia, Vox Day, Brad […]
Lees vrouwen: N.K. Jemisin | De Zesde Clan
August 24, 2015 @ 8:19 am
[…] of mensen wél willen, of niet, het SF en fantasy genre verandert, vernieuwt en biedt steeds meer diversiteit. Met haar verhalen […]
The True History of the Great Puppy Kerfuffle of 2015 CE | Camestros Felapton
August 25, 2015 @ 5:50 am
[…] Mike Glyer’s puppy round ups ( http://file770.com/?page_id=22881), Jim C Hines’s article http://www.jimchines.com/2015/06/puppies-in-their-own-words/ , The Hugo Awards blog http://www.thehugoawards.org/, and the blogs of Larry Correia, Vox Day, Brad […]
The Hugos and the Puppies (last post on the topic for the year for this year?) | Fraser Sherman's Blog
August 25, 2015 @ 2:46 pm
[…] she’s human) became involved in the effort. For details you can read Jim Hines’ history, with lots of quotes from the Puppy […]
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 7:28 pm
Re: dangly bits / melanin being significant… it occurs to me that celebrating various authors for being “diverse” specifically on those bases implies that those are, in fact, significant criteria. That is on the table, has been from the beginning of this discussion. As the “default” types, white guys didn’t put it there.
If you want to say that you personally didn’t argue that, or that you personally disagree with that, that’s fair, and it could lead to finding common ground more rapidly. It would avoid the internet’s “Arguing with someone other than the person you’re talking to” threads, which would be nice.
But it would also be nice if we all could acknowledge that Diversity arguments these days typically revolve around dangly bits and melanin. At that point we could move on to what good that does anyone, or whether there are equally valid criteria of Diversity, which in my opinion is a more interesting (and inclusive!) discussion.
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 7:34 pm
On the other hand, the Puppies’ argument (as I understand it) has been a subculture of a subculture has “hijacked” the awards for the sake of its own narrowly-focused interests.
At that point, it makes more sense to spin off the subculture with a more focused award. Perhaps what we need is to award a Hugo to represent SciFi fandom generally, and another award — the “Ursula”, say — to focus on gender and identity.
Jim C. Hines
August 31, 2015 @ 7:40 pm
People can argue that the moon is made of ear wax, but when there’s zero evidence or support for a particular claim, I don’t see any reason to waste time on it.
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 7:55 pm
If we’re talking “popularity” you might want to check out the shelf-feet at Barnes and Noble for authors like Butcher. If you start comparing royalty checks, are you sure that the authors you prefer would win?
The Sad Puppies argument is that there are popular authors out there who are getting ignored, for the benefit of message fiction. Considering my own experience with this, I think they have a point.
After reading and enjoying Hugo winners like Niven / Pournelle, Zahn, Willis, and Bujold (and enjoying them all immensely) I got Scalzi’s “Redshirts” as a present from someone who knew I liked reading Hugo winners.
I was simply not impressed. The writing was lucid enough, but it was based on a gimmick about ST:TOS and the “narrative” intellectual fad, as opposed to an idea. (Honestly, it would have worked better as satire about an old Star Trek in-joke and a weaponized “narrative” rather than as something we’re meant to take seriously.)
If this is what the Hugos are reduced to celebrating, something’s wrong. The idea that Scalzi is winning for some reason other than the quality of his writing made a lot of sense to me. “Redshirts” simply doesn’t belong on a list of Hugos.
Ultimately, I don’t think that people who like what SciFi has to offer, judged by shelf-feet and history, are going to be flocking to the genre based on recent wins. Considering that one use of Best Of honors is to introduce people to the genre, focusing on a subculture of the SciFi subculture has serious drawbacks.
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 7:59 pm
I think it’s known as Chekov’s Gun. Everything needs a reason, or a good editor cuts it out. That’s how we avoid tomes like Les Miserables or Moby Dick.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
Jim C. Hines
August 31, 2015 @ 8:05 pm
Except nobody demands a reason for why a character is white, or straight, or male…
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 8:23 pm
Mr. Hines, is this a fair characterization of the Sad Puppies vs. Rabid Puppies slates?
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 8:26 pm
Very true, it is their prerogative as voters.
However, it just plays into the hands of anyone who says the voting isn’t based on quality.
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 8:32 pm
Arguably, if the Puppies truly had poor taste, then voting for (the few) things you actually enjoyed from their list wouldn’t have taken too much oomph out of a protest-vote against what they did, would it?
It would probably take a lot of poison out of the atmosphere if some common ground like that could be found. It could even give the authors that won under those circumstances the moral standing to stabilize the situation and bring the sides together.
Otherwise, this situation stands to get worse before it gets better.
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 8:41 pm
I wonder what the results would look like if the Arabic, Hindu, and Mandarin speaking worlds voted?
That might actually be a good way to expand the Hugos.
Practically speaking (until Google translate perfects itself), it may make sense to make them their own categories. But who knows what the future would bring? 🙂
kdlang
August 31, 2015 @ 8:55 pm
“eye-rolling”
Keep trying to paint yourself as better than the people you’re shit-talking. Nobody’s buying it.
Jim C. Hines
August 31, 2015 @ 8:57 pm
Which characterization are you referring to, please?
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 9:02 pm
I didn’t demand a reason why all the characters in Romance of the Three Kingdoms were Chinese, and I really don’t think the story needed a white guy to make it relatable.
Honestly, all this reminds me of the part in Maxine Hong Kingston’s “China Men”, where she reminisces about a favorite comic book of her childhood.
She and her friends identified with the fighter pilots in the book (who were suspiciously square-jawed and round-eyed.) Then the comic book introduced a “Chinese” character, who was drawn according to the caricatures of the time, and they didn’t identify him at all.
People can relate to “default” characters. That’s what Maya Angelou was talking about when she said, “Shakespeare must be a black girl”. (See the Atlantic article on the subject).
There is something extremely divisive in identity politics, and Sad Puppies is an inevitable manifestation of the problem.
Jim
August 31, 2015 @ 9:05 pm
Is Dr. Mauser’s characterization of RP’s slate as just a truncated SP slate, a fair characterization?
Matthew Thyer
August 31, 2015 @ 11:19 pm
“The Sad Puppies argument is that there are popular authors out there who are getting ignored, for the benefit of message fiction. Considering my experience with this, I think they have a point.”
The obvious question almost no one has asked is “Might these ‘overlooked’ works not be making it into awards consideration because of their quality?” The idea that “message fiction” exists isn’t so unreasonable, but if this sort of fiction achieves higher marks from an award that is passed out solely on peoples’ opinions than it follows that works that conform to the “written with a message meme” might be more popular/in-demand than those that are not.
For my part, while I’ve tried some the authors who feel “left out” I am unlikely ever to reread those books. Their claims of writing in the style of Heinlein, for instance, seem far fetched to me, and I have struggled mightily to suspend my disbelief with many of them. But there’s the rub.
All of that is my personal opinion. When it comes time to vote my personal opinions for next year’s awards I’m not going to try to leverage the power of a slate to grow the impact of my opinions. I’m not going to insist that you like the same things I do, I’m going to allow you — much because I enjoy my sanity too much — to register your opinions with the expectation that you won’t cheat or manipulate the system.
“The idea that Scalzi is winning for some reason other than the quality of his writing made a lot of sense to me. “Redshirts” simply doesn’t belong on a list of Hugos.”
Today, I ran across this piece by Jonathon Jones of The Guardian — Get real. Terry Pratchett is not a literary genius. The guy clearly does not like genre fiction nor does he aspire to understand SFF. That’s too bad, some of the best writing I’ve ever read came from Pratchett. I own all of his audio books, all of them because all of them are wonderfully written and wry.
Clearly you feel much the same about Scalzi’s work. “Red Shirts” was well written, funny, and periodically made me laugh out loud. If you’re a Trekkie than it’s highly likely you enjoyed it too. I enjoyed it, perhaps not as much as “Human Division” or “Old Man’s War” but plenty all the same. I voted for it too, so I was glad when he got a rocket.
But here’s the tricky part, I suppose. I imagine that explaining why I love Pratchett so much would be frustrating. He’s missed the joke, and no amount of explanation is going to clue him into the value of the humor that’s just sailed over his skull. He doesn’t get it, and there are no indications he wants to understand.
Finally, something that has been rubbing me the wrong way for a while. There’s no such thing as “message fiction” — storytelling is ultimately a way of telling others something. Your message might be “gay people are okay” or you might be the kind of author who wants to say “I really like guns, the bigger the better,” but in either case, there is a message in the text. When we look at fiction this way the idea that there’s this thing called “message fiction” where authors sit around checking off boxes on some list start to appear precisely as ludicrous as it is. It’s a divisive idea that’s functionally incorrect, and easily disproven.
The Puppies have been coining a bunch of other terms of late too, and I for one am starting to get insulted. “Literary fiction?” If we interpret this one literally, this would be fiction that is written about the study, content or form of writing.
Casting aside the literal interpretation of that term we’re supposed to understand that the Puppy coinage “Literary fiction” actually means writing that is meant to have quality or beauty. The implication is that writing which tries to be these things is unjustly elevating itself over popular demands. “Good ol’ Merican verbs, predicates and pronouns for me, thank you.” It’s a term that’s meant to mean some people who write also get MFAs or spend any time at all in the study of their craft. From outside their vantage point, it looks a lot like willful ignorance coupled with self-congratulatory cronyism.
Timothy Liebe
August 31, 2015 @ 11:33 pm
I just came here to say “Thank you, you summed up what I feel perfectly” to Matthew Thyer.
Timothy Liebe
August 31, 2015 @ 11:43 pm
FYI, Australian SF Fan/Podcaster Terry Frost ended this week’s edition of his The Martian Drive-In Podcast (a biweekly show of SF/Fantasy/Supernatural movie reviews) with a one-hour discussion with WorldCon organizer Janice Gelb about the Sad/Rabid Puppies slate. There’s also positive reviews of both Strange Days and Pitch Black that precede it.
Terry’s a former one-time Hugo presenter (the story of how he screwed it up is pretty hilarious, and gets recounted here!), and one of the few podcasters Tamora Pierce and I like enough to donate regularly to his Patreon campaign (you’ll hear us mentioned in the end credits as “Tammy the Donut Wrangler” and “Tim the NY Unit Director”!).
You can get it on your favorite Podcatcher, or listen directly at http://martiandrivein.podbean.com/e/martian-drive-in-podcast-68-pitch-black-strange-days-for-the-hugos/ .
Jim
September 1, 2015 @ 1:14 am
Not much for Hemingway, eh? Churchill is right out too, I’m guessing. 😉
Here’s how it strikes me that this conversation is going, and in this I think I’m aligning with the SP’s… “Looking at some of the best-selling SciFi writers out there, I’m not sure that the sort of Identity Theory / Narrative Theory musings that are winning Hugos these days are in broadly in-demand.”
Anti-SPer: “Of course they’re in-demand.”
Me: “By whom?”
Anti-SPer: “By *me*, of course.” 🙂
…Am I misrepresenting you, as an anti-SPer? Feel free to correct me, if so.
I would simply like to suggest that Identity / Narrative Theory is popular in academia nowadays, and that gives it a large dollop of establishment credibility. But there’s the rub — it is therefore open to (and deserving of) charges of elitism.
(Also, is it really the place of Science Fiction to bow to the academy? Where’s the freedom and creativity in that? Science fiction should be *leading*, not following, and it should be seeking out trends that go in directions academia does not expect, not doubling down on hidebound establishment academic theories.)
SP’s represent the many people (myself included, it seems) who are seeing the expansive, outward-looking, technology-based speculative fiction (and authors) we have greatly enjoyed reading, broadly deprecated for not having burned their incense to the Caesar of Academic Political Correctness.
There is a subculture of Fandom that thinks well of fiction in line with this decade’s intellectual fashions (which happen to be radically inward-looking). This is going to happen pretty much any decade. However, and I think this is a key point, the cohort known as “SJWs” is (with the help of the internet) weaponizing those fashions and using them to burn down a great deal of the most widely-enjoyed science fiction legacy, as well as using them to fend off any hint of divergence from their orthodoxy in the Hugos.
(How do you even get diversity without divergence?)
Anyway, it’s late and I’m diverging into tangents myself, so let me wrap up with a hopeful note.
I think that ten years from now, something else will have captured Fandom’s attention — maybe asteroid mining, or Elon Musk’s imminent departure for Mars, or a highly versatile, effective, and ubiquitous personal assistant AI. Writing great science fiction about those subjects will be an ever-increasing percentage of female and high-melanin authors… and today’s Sad Puppies will be perfectly OK with that. I daresay even Happy. 🙂
Jim
September 1, 2015 @ 1:21 am
Does anyone else miss Bujold’s Vorkosigan Saga as much as I do? She could cover all the bases, with Space Opera at its grandest. Oh, for Admiral Naismith to save the day…
Jim C. Hines
September 1, 2015 @ 10:50 am
“Looking at some of the best-selling SciFi writers out there, I’m not sure that the sort of Identity Theory / Narrative Theory musings that are winning Hugos these days are in broadly in-demand.”
Anti-SPer: “Of course they’re in-demand.”
Me: “By whom?”
Anti-SPer: “By *me*, of course.” 🙂
Yes, I’ve heard this argument. It’s usually followed by pointing out that in fact, books like Redshirts — which you didn’t like, and that’s fine — were enough in demand to make the NYT Bestseller list.
There’s also the argument to be made that popularity and award-worthy aren’t the same thing, though they can overlap. If you want to go simply by popularity, does that mean you think Twilight should have won a Hugo?
Jim C. Hines
September 1, 2015 @ 10:53 am
Hard to say. Brad has been tight-lipped about how the Sad Puppies slate was created, so we don’t know if Beale was involved in building SP as well as RP.
There’s plenty of overlap between SP and RP, with RP being more explicitly a “Vote for me, Theodore Beale, and my publishing house!” slate. And I would agree that Beale piggybacked the Sad Puppies, yes.
Jim
September 1, 2015 @ 10:57 am
It seems to me that the point of SP is to criticize the fact that Hugo-award-worthy has a very specific meaning nowadays, a highly politicized one that hews very closely to political correctness. (Much like the New York Times.)
I think it is valid to raise this objection.
CiaraCat
September 1, 2015 @ 12:47 pm
Hi Just Jim (as opposed to Jim C. Hines),
We hear you saying you think “we” are doing it completely wrong (where I gather “we” means everybody who is not part of the clique who identify themselves as Puppies).
Let’s talk about the books.
Did you like the nominated works this year? Which ones, particularly, and what about them made you feel they were more Hugo-worthy?
What did you love last year, that you thought should have been on the ballot, and were disappointed that it wasn’t?
What are you reading and loving this year, that you’re thinking would look good on next year’s ballot?
Like someone said recently, what 2015 works are you reading that you can’t bear the thought of NOT giving a Hugo?