Rape, Abuse, and Marion Zimmer Bradley
My very first rejection letter was from Marion Zimmer Bradley. It was both harsh and helpful. So I was thrilled when, years later, I made one of my first professional sales to Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Fantasy Magazine. I was even happier when I sold a story to her anthology Sword & Sorceress XXI.
I’m proud of those stories. I believe the Sword & Sorceress series was important, and I’m grateful to Bradley for creating it. I believe her magazine helped a lot of new writers, and her books helped countless readers. All of which makes the revelations about Marion Zimmer Bradley protecting a known child rapist and molesting her own daughter and others even more tragic.
Here are some of the relevant links.
- Marion Zimmer Bradley’s testimony in defense of her husband, Walter Breen, a convicted pedophile.
- A blog post from Deirdre Saoirse Moen, in which Moira Greyland, daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradley and Walter Breen, states that Bradley molested her starting when she was three years old and continuing until Greyland was twelve and able to walk away. Greyland also describes Breen as “a serial rapist with many, many victims,” but says Marion “was far, far worse.”
- The “Breendoggle” Wiki. Much of fandom seemed to know about the allegations against Breen. The documentation includes eyewitness accounts of Breen molesting children and discussion that even if Breen was indeed an active pedophile, that doesn’t mean he should be expelled from fandom.
- Silence is Complicity. Natalie Luhrs talks about Breen, MZB, and the damage done by prioritizing silence over safety, complicity over acting to protect the vulnerable members of our community.
- On Doing a Thing I Needed to Do. Janni Lee Simner talks about having written for some of MZB’s projects, and her choice to donate her income from those sales to RAINN.
There’s more out there, including people defending MZB, as well as people insisting we must “separate the art from the artist” and not let MZB’s “alleged” crimes detract from the good she’s done. And there’s the argument that since MZB died fifteen years ago, there’s no point to bringing up all of this ugliness and smearing the name of a celebrated author.
I disagree.
To begin with, while Bradley and Breen are both gone from this world, their victims survive. The damage they inflicted lives on. Are you going to tell victims of rape/abuse that nobody’s allowed to acknowledge what was done to them? That the need to protect the reputation of the dead is more important than allowing victims their voice? To hell with that.
Second, as Luhrs and others have pointed out, many of the same behaviors that allowed this abuse to continue for so long are still present in fandom and elsewhere today. We excuse sexual harassment as social awkwardness. We ignore ongoing harassment and assault for years or decades because someone happens to be a big name author or editor. Half of fandom shirks from the mere thought of excluding known predators, because for some, sexual harassment and assault are lesser crimes than shunning a predator from a convention.
I’m not going to say that people should or shouldn’t throw all of MZB’s books away. There are authors whose careers might not have happened without MZB’s help, and our genre is better for many of them. But it’s also important to acknowledge that predators exist. They may be in positions of power and influence. Sometimes, they’re people who have done good work for a community. They often have very smooth, well-practiced tactics for defending or excusing their actions.
When we ignore ongoing harassment and abuse, when we belittle efforts to create harassment policies, when we respond to people speaking out about their own abuse and harassment by accusing them of starting “lynch mobs” and “witch hunts,” we’re teaching predators that fandom is a safe hunting ground. We’re teaching them that they will be protected, and their victims will be sacrificed so we can cling to an illusion of inclusiveness.
We need to work on teaching a different lesson.
Choose Monkeys or Robots | Brainbiter
June 24, 2014 @ 1:54 pm
[…] fiction writers fall into two different camps, depending on which type of sexual predator they prefer to socialize with, vote with, shoot […]
Laura Resnick
June 24, 2014 @ 2:37 pm
What Waters described herself doing with that info, in her deposition, was going to Breen and to Bradley to ask them about it. And then dropping the subject forever.
So one also wonders if, in addition to no one helping that child, she also experienced repercussions inside that household once her parents learned she had confided to someone.
James R. Tuck
June 24, 2014 @ 2:49 pm
There are millions upon millions of books in the world.
Yes, MZB’s works are tainted by these accusations. No, wait, they are saturated by these accusations.
If you own them you should take them out back and set them on fire.
Read something that didn’t financially contribute to a lifestyle of raping children.
wendy
June 24, 2014 @ 2:58 pm
That’s kind of my reaction too. I started reading her books in the 70s as a young teen but didn’t get into the fandom and the SCA until the mid 80s. I first heard of this last week.
I totally get the “not wanting to believe ill of your friends” – I defended someone who turned out to be a serial abuser until the third woman I know said the same thing and I saw the same bruises. I felt like a complete idiot, and not only confronted him and told him why I never wanted to see or talk to him ever again, but I also went to each of the women whose pain I ignored and apologized. So I’m guessing many people who knew about these crimes felt the same way. They had the luxury of refusing to see what was going on under their noses. This is not to defend, but to explain.
As horribly uncomfortable as this is all to us, I hope that the fact that this is finally coming out brings some measure of comfort and vindication to the vicitms. I also hope that looking at ourselves and our culture is leading to asking ourselves some very hard questions and doing our best to keep things like this from happening again.
wendy
June 24, 2014 @ 3:01 pm
I agree. When I first tweeted out about this, the first thing I said was “And all my best wishes to Moira. We’re listening now”.
wendy
June 24, 2014 @ 3:10 pm
I am thinking along those lines – I own most of her Darkover boooks used, but I think I would feel better if I toted up the cover prices of all of them and then donated that amount to RAINN or another group that helps survivors of abuse/molestation. I’m unemployed right now, so that’s not an option, but I definitely plan to do so when I am solvent again.
Diane Raetz
June 24, 2014 @ 3:32 pm
Does Moria get royalties from MZB’s work? Cause if she does I’d be tempted to rebut the books as a donation–but I don’t think I could ever read them again
Jim C. Hines
June 24, 2014 @ 3:34 pm
Diane – She does not.
Susan
June 24, 2014 @ 4:13 pm
I’ve read all the Darkover books she actually wrote. From memory —
The Free Amazon trilogy (Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of Sorcery) will certainly pass. Stormqueen. The Forbidden Tower. MZB and Lisa Waters’ short story “The Keeper’s Price” and its sequel “The Lesson of the Inn” will both pass. I think the latter actually has no named male characters at all.
I’d be quite surprised if any of the first six Darkover books passed, since they’re classic 1950s-style male-viewpoint space-opera/fantasy adventure stories with few female characters at all.
There may well be others among her 1970s-1990s works, but while I am not throwing away her books, I am really not inclined to do any rereads right now.
Jim Yanni
June 24, 2014 @ 4:20 pm
I find myself incredibly torn here. I don’t want to be one of those people who defend a rapist (particularly a child rapist) and who accuses the victim of lying because it’s easier than accepting that they’re telling the truth. And from what I’m seeing here, the evidence that these allegations are true is pretty overwhelming; at least I see nothing here to suggest that they aren’t.
But I also find it all but inconceivable that they are true, not because MZB was a famous person, or even because she was a talented writer. But because of the way her characters treated each other, and the way they interacted. It is just mind-boggling that someone with that good an idea of how people should treat each other, whose characters consistently knew the difference between right and wrong, and whose plots consistently centered around the ideas of decency and consideration, could have done the things that she’s accused of. I’m not saying that it’s not true, or even that I don’t believe it. Just that it’s unfathomable. It requires that I re-evaluate some very basic precepts that inform my capacity to trust my judgment.
That being said, it bothers me that these allegations are coming out 15 years after she died, when she isn’t around to defend herself. Or even to acknowledge her crimes and repent. I will never know how she would have responded to these allegations, and that seems wrong, somehow. On the other hand, the fact that she’s dead simplifies the question of whether to boycott her books; buying them will no longer enrich her, and I see nothing indicating that anybody who currently profits from their sale took part in her alleged crimes (although I suppose there’s a good chance that they were at least complicit by silence, so perhaps it would be safest to only buy her books used, so that no royalties will accrue to her estate.) But I cannot see that it would accomplish anything useful to destroy the dozens of her books that I have, to refuse to re-read them, and certainly not to sell them to others. I see nothing in any book that she wrote that is other than uplifting and inspiring. To trash that would be counterproductive. I don’t understand how it is possible for someone who was guilty of what she’s accused of to have created such beauty, but if in fact it is, the beauty is still beauty regardless of its source. And I’m not talking about beauty in terms of “entertaining”; I’m talking about the moral lessons to be found in her writing. If she was as big a hypocrite as she’d have to have been to write those stories while being guilty of what she’s accused of here, that’s incredibly sad and disappointing. But it doesn’t invalidate the message if the messenger didn’t actually believe in it.
Mary
June 24, 2014 @ 4:23 pm
Having said my piece a bit ago, I also want to say another side to this. MZB was born in the 1930’s. Marriage laws WERE different back then…and what we refer to as children now…were, in fact, getting married and making sexual decisions at that time. Also, during that time, women did not speak out against their husband…it was socially unacceptable. It was “unbecoming” of a woman to “gossip” about her husband and she would have been outcast. Unmarried pregnancies were reason for firing a woman for immoral conduct…and many more stigmas were attached to women. This does not excuse her behavior, or lack of openness, but does explain it. The deposition was taken in 1998…34 years after the alleged incident. The questions being asked were being asked to a 68 year old woman who had already had multiple strokes and suffered significant memory lapses. So in some ways, MZB was trapped by being born into an era where these things simply weren’t talked about.
In the criticisms that will follow…I will remind this audience that rape victims were blamed for the attack up until about 15 or so years ago (and to some extent continues today)…it was never the perpetrator that was blamed…unless unyielding proof prevailed against him/her. If the charges were against the parent??? God forbid…it was only about the child having a temper tantrum over not being able to go out…or for being grounded… And the parents were believed up until about just 30 years ago (now the onus is the other way around and children now use this as leverage to terrorize another adult into doing what they want.)
The pendulum needs to swing into the middle…where calmer heads prevail. Should he have been “banned” from the conventions? As a paid guest…yes. As an attendee…if he’s paying his way…there is no real way to stop that.
Not everything MZB did in her lifetime is horrid. While folks are wanting to burn her books…let’s also shut down the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronisms), or toss the Avalon books completed by Diana L. Paxson just because they were friends? Where does to book burning and witch-hunt (excuse the pun) end on this?
I have been a victim of rape. I was raised in the time where victims were to blame for their abuse. I DO understand the pain and hurt and horror of knowing no escape from a nightmare… But I learned that I live in a time much different from that of my parents. I’m glad of that. I’m glad that victims can now be heard. But I’m also glad that I can let the past be buried with my perpetrators and their wrongs no longer rule my life…because as long as I let their actions control my pain…I truly had not moved on… But now I’m free.
Singingdragon
June 24, 2014 @ 4:29 pm
I feel terrible, for many reasons, I thought I wanted to be like her, write like her… and now I am glad that I am not like her, either in writing or lifestyle. I feel for her children and the many other victims that are surviving this horrible history. As a survivor of the same kind of abuse, I can say that the survivors often get blamed, excluded from estates and socially ostracized when those survivors are from families with “famous” abusers. Tho my family had no “famous” abusers we had abusers nonetheless and they got away with it so that the family could have “peace” and live without any kind of controversy or dirt attached to the family name. Little do most of them know that there was always dirt on our name because of them allowing this to go on. I was not the only one this family member abused, but because of fear those outside the family did not report it, thus it was always his word over mine. Many have come forward years later to apologize for not reporting it, but I cannot blame a victim for their fear..only the abuser for his abuse. They say to forgive and to forget…but that’s not the reality of it. For the sake of peace, they allowed me to be hurt continuously until I could get away, he then found others to abuse, and he still got away with it. Those that excuse the sexual predation in favor of the art produced by those pedophiles are just as guilty and deserve the same ostracization as those that commit the abuse. turning your face away from evil only allows that evil to continue…Go ahead and turn your face away, refuse to see what’s being done, or been done. What you do in life will always get you the same return in hell. Enjoy your sheltered, rainbow farting unicorn filled life, when you die and go to your little bit of heaven according to your doctrine you will still have to explain why you let someone’s soul be eaten at by evil.
Mariah Canfield-Jones
June 24, 2014 @ 4:39 pm
I have read through a majority of all this and my heart is hurt, I wanted to be a writer, I wanted more than anything to admire someone who wrote great works, Marion was on that list. There is the Japanese writer, Kenji Miyazawa who wrote Night on the Galactic Railroad, Roger Zelazny, J.R.R. Tolkien, and suddenly, I had to put a large red streak right through Marion’s name because when I read the evidence and I’m sorry to say, my heart is broken. Fans of her works must feel the burn as much as I do, the overwhelming anger, as much as this is old news, it burns still to the fans of these works.
I have urged my friends to read this article and also post their views, it basically hurts my soul and heart that i have to actually re-evaluate my own love for writing. I am an aspiring writer and was influenced by both Japanese and Western cultures. I am now staring at this, my eyes burning with anger
KL
June 24, 2014 @ 4:42 pm
In some places authors do receive a small amount of (public) money based on how popular their book/s is/are from a public library. So you might want to check whether this is the case where you live if you’re planning on reading the books of someone you don’t particularly want to give money to.
Laura Resnick
June 24, 2014 @ 4:48 pm
“That being said, it bothers me that these allegations are coming out 15 years after she died, when she isn’t around to defend herself.”
It’s more accurate to say that most of us are hearing about these allegations for the first time 15 years after she died.
Allegations of MZB abusing her own children appear in the court depositions taken while she was alive, in the testimony of her longtime close companion (and, we are told, sole heir to her literary trust) Elisabeth Waters: Waters admitted, under questioning, that Moira, while still a young child, confided to Waters that she was physically and sexually abused by both her parents.
MZB’s own deposition, in her own words, states that she was aware of her husband’s sexual activities with children and did nothing about it.
KL
June 24, 2014 @ 4:48 pm
*citation needed
nm
June 24, 2014 @ 4:56 pm
I think it also depends, to a great extent, on which came first, the knowledge of the artist’s personal faults, or the experience of the art. If I learned today that my favorite writer was a murderer, a rapist, a torturer, I would have to rethink all that writer’s works. BUT I would already have had the experience of loving them — and the past enjoyment would not disappear, no matter how much less I valued them in the future. Whereas, if someone recommended a writer who I already knew to be one of those things, I’d have a much harder time approaching the books without that knowledge, and without being influenced by it.
Laura Resnick
June 24, 2014 @ 5:25 pm
I understand what you’re saying about times and attitudes being different, but I don’t think it’s an explanation. For example, I have a close friend, still alive, who was born a year or two before MZB was, so these women were contemporaries. I have known this person very well for about 25 years, and can readily say she would be shocked and revolted by everything in these documents–and would have been shocked and revolted back then, too. I also know from many anecdotes about her past that she’d have left a man like Breen, would not have married a man like Breen (Breendogle was before MZB married him, after all), and would have urged a friend or relative to leave a man like Breen. And would have considered anyone who tied a child to a chair and threatened to remove their teeth with a pliers (as is stated in the depositions that MZB admitted to doing to her young daughter) an abuser; again, I am not guessing, my friend has talked about physical abuse in her own childhood and her emphatic opposition to physically abusing children (which stated clearly to her prospective husband before marrying him and having children in the 1950s). Even though my friend was (and is), generally speaking, a fairly conventional woman rather than a ground-breaking social radical, there is realistically no question that she’d have dealt with any of these people or problems as MZB did.
I can think of a number of other people (including relatives) I know or have known (when they were alive) very well who were also MZB’s contemporaries or who were from a previous generation than MZB who also would have reacted very differently to these people and events than the people in Breendoggle and in MZB’s and Waters’ depositions acted.
People did indeed =talk= much less about these things in the past. The media also talked much, much less about these things in the past. But apart from the very young, we’ve all known people of MZB’s generation or older, and among the elders I have known well throughout my life, I have not found a chasm of values in terms of child abuse, sexual abuse, child molesters, and spouses who engage in abhorrent practices.
Mary
June 24, 2014 @ 5:48 pm
I’m not sure what citation was being looked for on the one comment.
To Laura – I will only say that my birth mother moved out of the bedroom from her husband when she learned of him molesting my half-sister. I was molested by my adoptive father…and repeatedly reported it. My adoptive parents silenced me when the children’s minister at my church raped me. All because of the stigma associated with the act. Has my adoptive mother’s attitudes changed now that she’s in her late 80’s? Yes. But back in the 50’s and 60’s women accepted what men told them as truth. Truth is…my dad did, finally, admit to my mom what he did while I was growing up…her reaction in her late 70’s “Oh…that’s in the past. Do we have to bring that up now?” She didn’t want to face that she’d let him do that to me…or that I had told the truth. But he’s dead, and he and I made our peace before he died. Because I found my birth mom, and was able to see the lives impacted there, and the entire family’s reaction to it all (don’t talk, don’t tell)…(I actually found out from my step-dad himself since he wanted to tell me why my birth mom was mad at him.)
I would like to have thought that my birth mom would have tossed him out…or done worse…which is what I really wanted my adoptive mom to do. But the truth is…she did more than my adoptive mom did. At least she moved out of his bedroom and hadn’t slept with him sense.
All the times I talked and reported it while growing up in the 60’s-70’s someone would come to the house, talk with my parents, get the “oh she’s just mad about blah blah blah” I’d get talked to by the caseworker about how wrong it was to make up lies…and once she left my life became hell.
Most likely…that’s what happened with Moria too. The authorities listened to the parents…not the kid (whereas in today’s society…the kids is listened to solely…and sometimes falsely.) As I said…the pendulum needs to swing to the middle. Not every kid is telling the truth…but neither is every parent.
Jim C. Hines
June 24, 2014 @ 5:56 pm
This doesn’t happen in the U.S., but does in some other countries.
Laura Resnick
June 24, 2014 @ 6:27 pm
Your experiences remind me of a housemate of mine who worked at a shelter for battered women who’d left their husbands, back in the 1980s. She let me read the material they gave herwhen she started the job, to familiarize herself with the problems these women had dealt with. These were all first-hand accounts by people at the shelter (names removed, for their own protection) in which these battered women talked about their experiences and their attempts to escape their abusers.
And the thing that was so shocking to me then, only 30 years ago, was how every single layer of the community and the system failed each of these women again and again and again and again. Family members who saw their injuries and bruises urged them to return to their husbands, be more patient, not make a fuss, etc. Ministers and priests insisted they be more obedient and docile, and blamed them for being battered. Hospitals patched them up and sent them home to their abusers, advising them not to dwell on what had happened. Social workers advised them just to consider themselves lucky that they had husbands and homes. Cops said, “Try not to make him so angry again.” Friends abandoned them, condemned them, shunned them.
Only 30 years ago. It was eye opening for me as a young woman who was unfamiliar with domestic violence to read personal account after account after account after account like this, written by real people at the shelter when my roommate was working.
One of the huge turn-arounds in the system, as I learned during a police course I took last autumn, is that in most places in the US now, when the cops get a domestic violence call, it’s an automatic arrest. They cannot leave the scene without arresting someone. If the woman is bleeding and weeping but claims nothing has happened, the man gets arrested anyhow. (Whereas it used to be that if the woman wouldn’t speak up or press charges, cops couldn’t or wouldn’t do anything.) If the situation isn’t nearly that clear, then both (or all) parties in the house get arrested. A domestic vioence call is now a mandatory arrest (to ensure that no one gets beaten or killed as soon as the police are safely out of sight again).
Erica Wagner
June 24, 2014 @ 6:31 pm
Artists are not the same things as politicians. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone suggesting that we gut the clean water act because it’s part of Nixon’s legacy. I also think that when politicians abuse their office, it’s a horrible thing that affects everyone, something that belongs to all of us as Americans. It’s a great harm, but it’s a different from the secret destruction of individual lives perpetrated by child molesters.
I don’t think anyone has advocated censoring or unpublishing MZB’s work. There’s a huge difference between saying “I can’t stomach reading anything by this artist ever again because it makes me puke inside my mouth to think about what she did to children,” and saying the government (or any other controlling entity) should step in and ban her books. Of course, there’s the possibility that if enough people stop buying an artist’s work, or if enough negative PR is associated with it, its publisher will let it go out of print. This is how things work, however.
Maybe more people will be able to distance themselves from her personal nastiness someday. It’s hard to say, because there’s no real historic comparison. There are some famous artists from the past we know are horrible people, but they practiced their depredations in an era where fewer details of people’s lives were recorded for posterity. In any case, for many of us, now is not the time. This artist’s victims are still alive, and some of the people who covered for what she did are too.
And I certainly think it’s entirely reasonable to learn from this sad experience and to aggressively ban known predators from cons and fan events and to report them to law enforcement as well. We know now that child molesters aren’t “cured” by relationships with adults, or stigmatization within their social circle, or by exposure and ridicule. They are a menace and need to be put where they can’t harm anyone else.
Erica Wagner
June 24, 2014 @ 6:44 pm
Well, ignoring that MZB is often touted as a feminist who was part of a crowd of people who are ahead of their time with regards to attitudes about sex, gender roles, and relationships, there are a couple of things to remember:
1. Breen’s behavior with children were known in the Berkeley SFF community before MZB married him in 1964. He was convicted of child molestation for the first time in 1954, and the “Breendoggle” events happened in 1962.
2. Many of Breen’s victims were prepubescent. Sex with ten year old and younger kids (and especially outside of marriage) was not acceptable when Breen and Bradley were growing up either.
3. Bradley abused her own daughter, starting when she was three. I have a hard time seeing how “old fashioned” notions about sex, family and the appropriate age for a child to engage in consensual sexual activity could have been a factor here.
4. My own parents are about the same age as these folks, and in fact they lived in Berkeley in the late 50s and very early 60s (thankfully, they did not move in the same circles). Yes, attitudes were different, but this kind of behavior would have appalled them if any of their university friends engaged in such.
Sally
June 24, 2014 @ 6:51 pm
Moira hadn’t spoken publicly, Jim.
Jim C. Hines
June 24, 2014 @ 6:54 pm
Jim,
As you’ve probably seen from some of the other comments, you’re not along in feeling torn up about all of this. And for the most part, I don’t think anyone is saying you have to destroy all of your MZB books or anything like that. Everyone’s struggling and figuring out what’s best for themselves on that one.
And while I completely understand not wanting to believe the allegations, I’d also point out that the art isn’t the artist. I’ve read beautifully-written books about tolerance and acceptance from authors who turned out to be nasty bigots, for example. Likewise, I’ve worked with rapists and batterers who were very, very good at passing for kind-hearted, friendly people. It’s disturbing as hell.
Sally
June 24, 2014 @ 6:56 pm
C.E. I like your understatement on the estate planning.
Sally
June 24, 2014 @ 7:01 pm
It’s been substantially longer than MZB’s lifetime that 10 year olds were getting married in the US. Much less 3 year olds.
Sally
June 24, 2014 @ 7:19 pm
Once a friend of mine told me a story about someone in her extended family who abused a child. It took her years to find out the whole story, with the usual family closing ranks to protect their good name.
BUT.
(Trigger warnings for extreme violence)
It was rural Texas. The other men in the family tied up the molester, beat the hell out of him, then threw him in a pen with an untamed bull, then let pigs into the pen.
Then they erased his name from the family Bibles, chiseled it off his mother’s tombstone, and in ways legal and bribery, got his name out of the mostly-paper databases that existed at the time. DMV record? Gone. Social Security? Gone. Military? Gone. Marriage license? Gone. His daughter’s birth certificate? Changed to say “father unknown”.
(The name of the victim was never mentioned, to protect the innocent. My friend didn’t even know the gender.)
Is that a horrible reaction? Yes. Is it a very human reaction that one might grudgingly admire? Yes.
Part of me thinks “horrific overreaction” and part of me thinks “well, damn, that’s how to do it right”.
Being civilized 100% of the time is hard. While I abhor torture and premeditated murder, I cannot condemn that family for what they did.
Sally
June 24, 2014 @ 7:26 pm
Laura, you can see that even on “Cops”. (A guilty sick-day pleasure of mine) They’re always rolling up on domestic cases, separating the parties, and making it clear that someone’s going to be arrested. If they can’t sort it out, both of them go. Usually the one who isn’t yelling and bleeding gets the handcuffs and free ride to the station, particularly if there’s a neighbor who called it in and has heard/seen the trouble before.
Sally
June 24, 2014 @ 7:30 pm
The classic case is Ted Bundy, who volunteered at a suicide prevention hotline at the same time he was a serial killer.
C.E. Petit
June 24, 2014 @ 9:29 pm
It’s not a COMPLETE explanation, no. It’s almost certainly part of an explanation for the failure-to-report part of the rather disgusting little tale.
I have a one-word suggestion for everyone who thinks there’s a clear, objective “truth” available in circumstances like this — one that blames exactly the right people in exactly the right proportions:
Rashomon.
And that’s the EASY instance, because there WAS someone who “knew the truth”: The director.
Emily
June 24, 2014 @ 9:44 pm
As a reader, this has been a disturbing couple of hours, although obviously my own distress and confusion are only a tiny fraction of what people actually close to those involved in these incidents must have felt.
While some details (particularly the Satanic Ritual Abuse accusations) are questionable, there seems to be no way to doubt that great harm was done to a number of young people and that a beloved author was knowingly complicit in allowing it to take place and shielding the perpetrator.
Veronica Schanoes
June 24, 2014 @ 10:15 pm
Rashomon is a work of art. It is deliberately made to be that way. It has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not there is a clear, objective truth in circumstances like this.
SorchaRei
June 24, 2014 @ 10:16 pm
My parents were born on farms in the early 1930s and lived in Berkeley in the 1960s. When in the 1970s the first media reporting of court cases accusing a husband of raping his wife began to make the papers, my mother told me she didn’t know how she felt about it. Of course, it was wrong for a man to hurt his wife, but she also just ‘had a feeling’ that “marital rape” was an oxymoron.
(This freaked me out so much I refused to discuss it with her for 10 years. When I nervously brought it up again, she admitted her views had changed. She also said that her traditional idea of marriage is that a husband accepts no as an answer but a wife does her best only to say no very infrequently. However, she had come to see that a man who doesn’t listen to “no”, even or especially from his wife, was a rapist.)
Anyway, I tell you this to demonstrate what her traditional ideas about marriage and sex looked like in the late 60s and early 70s, as background for: when in 1969 my brother said that one of his friends had told him that his dad played sex games with my brother’s friend, she went into action. She spent some time with both boys and got a coherent enough story out of the kid that she believed what happened, and she leapt into action. She called the police on him, got my brother the therapeutic support he needed to cooperate with the police, and generally made sure everyone who needed to know what happened found out. (The guy was a school principal, so this was very important.) She also let the guy’s wife and two kids stay with us for a few weeks after the wife left her husband.
It’s obviously possible to have been raised on a very small farm during the 1930s, have soaked up very traditional ideas about sex and marriage, and still have recognized sex crimes against minors when you saw it.
Veronica Schanoes
June 24, 2014 @ 10:21 pm
But back in the 50′s and 60′s women accepted what men told them as truth.
That’s simply not true as a sweeping generalization. Many did. Many didn’t. I know enough feminists of an older generation to know that.
After my grandmother’s mother died, when she was 12, she was sent to a foster family where the father molested her. Once. She told the female social worker and was whisked out of there so quickly it made her head spin. This would have been in the 1930s. Living in an earlier decade does not prevent a woman from developing moral agency.
As for children being believed too much–not according to what I hear, when children are returned to abusive homes time and time again.
Emily
June 24, 2014 @ 10:28 pm
Also, from the deposition statements, it seems pretty clear that she did recognise what was going on. It wasn’t a case of him telling her that nothing happened and her believing it because he was The Man or anything like that. He told her that things did happen… and she chose not to act.
Tara Q
June 24, 2014 @ 10:32 pm
SCA member, heard about the MZB/Breen horrors when the 2009 case hit because this was instantly tied to it. In Lisa Waters’ ‘defense’, she asks that people read MZB’s books to see her position on child rape. I have read them, and one scene instantly popped into my head that gave me chills. In ‘Hawkmistress’, there’s a scene with an adult male feeling up what he believes to be a young, teenage boy, and the only reason he stopped was because the boy was actually a girl. When I was very young, I thought it was a brave move, to write homosexuality into a book even in passing. As I grew older, the age difference between the characters really began to bother me, but I wrote it off as period-specific norms. After the 2009 case hit and I learned about MZB/Breen, it made me get rid of the MZB books on my shelf. Reading Lisa’s comment in her ‘defense’ piece instantly brought this to mind, and made me wonder if it was something else entirely. Seeing devils behind doors, so to speak, but now wondering if the author was trying to create a social norm that would ..excuse?.. her husband’s (and hers) disturbing sexual preference for young children.
CJT
June 24, 2014 @ 10:48 pm
I think the decision on when, why and how to separate an artist from their art is entirely a personal decision. I hadn’t read Card before I found out about his bigotry. Now I can’t bring myself to do it. Or watch the movie, for that matter. My brother, who is equally appalled by Card’s bigotry, read the books before he found out about the bigotry. He likes the books too much to get read of them, and will reread them, but knowing what he knows now, won’t buy any new books or new copies – if he wanted to read one he didn’t own, he’d go with used or the library. (We had this conversation in depth at one point.) With MZB, I haven’t reread her books in years. The last time I read any of them was about twenty years ago, when I realized that the books I’d adored in my teens did not do much for me in my mid-twenties. I doubt I’ll destroy or otherwise get rid of the ones I still have, but I’m not going to reread them, either. They’ll probably get pitched in a move, or something.
When I first heard this story, a week or so ago now, I was (and still am, really) sickened, pretty literally at first. It feels almost like a personal betrayal. I had such respect for her before. It’s horrifying to find this out.
But I knew Lovecraft was racist before I read Lovecraft. There’s the old “man of his times” excuse, but I mentally file him more with the “liking problematic stuff” than separating art from artist. The racism is pretty blatant in some of the stories, not just in Lovecraft’s background. It’s like still liking a series despite the fact that it never passes Bechdel and the creators have said some pretty sexist things. I can acknowledge the flaws and still appreciate the strengths. I haven’t seen a Mel Gibson movie in quite a while, but I have seen movies with other actors who have said or done awful things.
Drawing the line between “I can’t separate this work from the horrible things the creator of it has done” and “this work is problematic but I still enjoy its strengths” is a personal call, and I think it’s something we can only make individually, on a case by case basis.
Ramona
June 24, 2014 @ 10:52 pm
Outraged and angry. I have read Moira’s posts on another blog. I admire her strength for speaking Truth. I am disturbed at the complicity of the quietude and the cover ups. I know that MZB had friends, ghostwriters. Is there a reliable/verifiable source of names of persons that *knew* what was happening? I can’t change the nature of a sexual predator. I do not have the words and wisdom to help heal the assaulted. But I don’t have to purchase or own writings by those whose silence damned the children to further victimization.
MariahCJ
June 24, 2014 @ 11:51 pm
I am appalled and outraged that I used to admire this writer, now I can’t bring myself to even look at her works anymore. This is entirely distressing for me because I was wanting to be a writer since I was a child. Now I don’t know what kind of person I would be and also questions my morals on how I view this.
Truthfully, after reading through the documentation from the trial itself, Marion didn’t even bother to inform a convention’s security of the problems, which as someone who attends a convention regularly a year, that is inexcusable, that is not only negligent, it is just down right inhuman to me.
Matt
June 25, 2014 @ 12:30 am
I think it’s worth noting, since a lot of people seem to miss it, that she didn’t just cover up the child rape. She actively participated, and tried to drown her own child for not letting her get away with it.
I’m having trouble taking this in. I didn’t read much of Bradley’s work, but quite a few authors I followed considered her a close personal friend. She had a pretty big impact on a culture that I love being part of. She provided some degree of support for a whole lot of people who have gone on to become great advocates against this kind of thing.
I ran into an interesting fact a couple months back. Deconstructionism, the literary analysis movement that attempts to separate the art from the artist, was largely created by a man who’d written Nazi propaganda. It seems the idea exists to try to separate terrible people from their actions, and vice versa. Nothing exists in a vacuum, which is really unfortunate sometimes.
Also, fuck Heinlein and his pro-incest, pro-pedophilia writings.
Kimberly Winrotte
June 25, 2014 @ 12:40 am
Yeah, uh, the founding days were also in the 1960’s. A lot has changed EVERYWHERE since then. Just sayin’.
Emily
June 25, 2014 @ 1:26 am
It’s extremely clear that she covered up the child rape, lied to others to protect her husband, and was beyond negligent with the safety of her children. The available evidence from multiple sources is pretty blatant, and this is something that absolutely should be mentioned in any public discussion of her character.
It’s a lot less clear whether she tortured her daughter, participated in satanic ritual murder, molested multiple children, etc. Many people are going to be uncomfortable stating these as facts under the circumstances. (I believe Moira remembers these things, I do not believe she is making them up.)
C.E. Petit
June 25, 2014 @ 1:37 am
I disagree. Rashomon was not made up out of whole cloth… and is disturbing in how close it comes to what the outsider charged with making a decision is confronted with.* Sometimes things are easy, as in the old Far Side cartoon (“Of course I did in in cold blood, you idiot! I’m a reptile!”). More often, it’s not, especially when the stories being presented are memories with no other evidence available.
And in this instance, I’d argue things are actually even more distorted, because none of us are charged with actually making a decision regarding MZB and/or decades-later reactions. We may choose to do so, but there’s no duty laid upon us.
None of which is to try to excuse anything.
* I spent the better part of a decade as a commanding officer. I’ve been that outside decisionmaker. It’s no fun.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 25, 2014 @ 1:54 am
Wow, that paragraph is art. Nicely done.
Lenora Rose
June 25, 2014 @ 3:37 am
Yes, there is a broad spectrum of behaviour in between. And the ones that have been reported thus far under sexual harassment policies have been people who have made their behaviour pretty regularly and with far too much knowledge to be mere “Socially awkward”.
So please take the straw man away. You are not, as yet, an apologist or enabler, but you are also not being especially helpful.
Possibly relevant to my attitude: A minister at my church went through an extended break and an investigation due to a sexual harassment accusation. It was found to be unfounded. I do not consider the hassle she (and the entire church community in its own way) had to go through to get that verdict either inappropriate or a waste of time, because I wanted her cleared absolutely or found culpable unquestionably, and had it been left to something other than a strict clear investigative process, there would always be doubts, and rumours, and whispers, and questions. Which would do their own damage.
Harley
June 25, 2014 @ 4:20 am
Something that struck me as a little off about that article was how the emphasis seems to be on her support of her husband, with the fact that she was also a child abuser that her own daughter says was worse being given lesser importance- which plays down the horror of abuse from women in a way that I found quite uncomfortable, as that’s a big factor in how women manage to get away with abuse.
Anubis
June 25, 2014 @ 5:27 am
“Deconstructionism, the literary analysis movement that attempts to separate the art from the artist, was largely created by a man who’d written Nazi propaganda.”
That would be Paul de Man. Also, reader-response criticism (or reception theory), which posits that the reader, not the author, is primarily responsible for what they see in a literary text, was created by German scholar Hans Robert JauĂź, who had been an officer of the Waffen-SS.
Both are indispensable methods in literary criticism, but they can also be seen as a kind of blame shift: Authors can’t possibly be responsible for what they write or do when you either posit that the author is ‘dead’ (deconstructionism) or that the interpretation of the text rests solely on the reader’s understanding (reception theory). I think it could give some insight to relate this to MZB’s case, whose books provoked an exceptionally strong response from their readers.
Veronica Schanoes
June 25, 2014 @ 7:53 am
Her daughter reported that she was molested by her when she was a child. The adult she chose to confide in took no action beyond asking MZB if it was true. MZB responded by saying “Children that age don’t have erogenous zones.” That seems pretty clear to me.
Veronica Schanoes
June 25, 2014 @ 7:58 am
It really doesn’t matter whether or not Rashomon was made up out of whole cloth. It’s a work of art. Works of art are not evidence for how things work in real life, no matter how persuasive they are (and it is their job to be persuasive). What they are is evidence of how a particular culture thinks they work.
Rape as a crime is only unclear if the cultural assumption is that women/children lie about rape and men/adults must be protected.
Siduri
June 25, 2014 @ 9:06 am
Conflating MZB’s involvement in the organization fifty years ago, with an abuse scandal that broke long after MZB had moved onto other things (and subsequently died), smacks of fallacy, or laziness, or both.
There’s this thing called the Law of Large Numbers. In any given group of reasonable size, no matter what the nature or stated core values of the group —geeky, freaky, mainstream, religious, Boy Scouts, 4-H Clubs — there is going to be an outside risk that it contains predators. No group is immune. Vigilance certainly helps, but it is not 100% foolproof.
Some, like Walter Breen, wear their freakiness on their sleeve. He had “priors” going back to the 50’s, and allegedly fondled and sexualized children *right in front* of other adults. In certain parts of fandom his proclivities seemed to be a sort of open secret, received with either disbelief, looking the other way, fear of confrontation since he was A Big Name, and (god forbid) “well that’s just ‘his kink’, who am I to judge” — and a handful of people who tried to put a stop to it, with mixed degrees of success.
Most predators, OTOH, are not so sloppy. They do not wear signs and are careful to cover their tracks. Otherwise prosecutors’ jobs would be a hell of a lot easier.
When the Ben Schragger case broke, the adults of the SCA were collectively gobsmacked. No one — NO ONE — saw it coming. There was no slime-trail, no tingling group “spider sense”, no waffling about “well that’s just ‘his kink’, who am I to judge” etc. Vetting in advance would have accomplished nothing, as he had no priors.
One wonders if you have even bothered to read the details of the Schragger case at all. If not, such comparisons are highly irresponsible.
Pat Munson-Siter
June 25, 2014 @ 10:02 am
Got to agree with the above couple of posters re excusing MZB due to her being born when she was, cultural norms, etc. Not only did she condone Breen’s actions as well as covering them up, she abused her own kids. It wasn’t a cultural norm to abuse and torture your own kids. Shades of “Mommy Dearest” to the max, folks.
I was about 9 years old when Breengate happened. I didn’t get involved in fandom until the late 1970s, but had read MZB’s books before that; my Dad was a SF fan (of the type that reads the books, not goes to conventions, etc.) and her books were some of the ones he passed down to me to read. Not one word heard about what we’re talking about today I actually was involved in MZB fandom for a while. . At the time, what I heard about MZB and Breen was that she was a lesbian, he was gay, and that they had married to obtain a veneer of respectability. Not one word in fandom – at least to those of us on the outskirts – about the child rape and abuse. So I don’t find it all that unbelievable that so many of us haven’t heard of this before. Most of this all happened before the internet made it so hard to keep things like this secret. And there has been enough other problems with sexism, harassment etc in fandom over the past few years that the lines of communication on this subject in fandom have been firmly established. I suspect there are going to be more long buried secrets from fandom that are going to surface and get splashed all over the internet in the next few years. (No, no personal knowledge of any; just making a prediction based on what has already happened over the last few years.)
Deciding whether or not to read any MZB again – well, no horse in this race for me; when I tried to write Darkover fanfic in the 1970’s I realized that I couldn’t stand trying to write characters in that universe. I started noticing the overall darkness of the world view, the idea that the civilization was falling into ruin (including the Terran confederation) and that no matter how hard the protagonists tried to make things better, that that civilization was slowly falling apart, doomed to die in destruction, chaos, and death. When I read Mists of Avalon, the same overall theme loomed in the background. Further, the worlds she wrote were of cultures where life sucked for men as well a women, that almost every character, if they were happy, were doomed to have that happiness taken away from them. “Life’s a bitch and then you die” for everyone. So I am not reading or rereading any of her work, but I’d already made that decision a few decades ago. (Gotta admit, I tried reading OSC’s “Ender’s Game” years ago and bounced, so – yeah, I don’t read his stuff, but I made that decision before I found out about his anti-gay attitudes and actions.)
If someone hears about this and still wants to read MZB, I’m not going to call them names. That’s their decision. But if they try and defend her actions in real life, that’s another thing all together. And I think that the folks who knew what was going on years ago and did nothing are going to find out that Kharma can be a real b****.
Sandi Mac
June 25, 2014 @ 10:18 am
While to do believe it is wrong and evil to have sex with children and they should be shot if caught doing so ,bring back death penalty for murder and rape/ rape of children, i do believe sum women are so in love with their partners,that they believe anything they say, in some family situations , i have know this to be the case, other times the mother believes their child with out question.Sum cases have been proven that the parent wasn’t raping or touching the child, but the child lying so she would never go to the father and new wife house ever again.Also the news & media does also exaggerate things,there’s always two stories,it’s sad and unless you really know the truth from that person ,which i do not and have not seen any interviews or such,i will not judge any one til i know the facts.
Child sex has been going on for centuries,back in Roman days,children having children is part of many cultures, I do believe no child under 16 at least should have sex,that’s just my opinion .I haven’t read any of her ( MZB’S) books ,but i like and have seen Mists of Avalon movie many times. So i feel for the daughter,no one should suffer this. i speak with experience ..i forgave,but i will never forget ..sadly . a lot of people don’t. It’s a very sad situation.
R. M.
June 25, 2014 @ 10:50 am
I hadn’t heard about this – I have only a few blogs I visit regularly, this among them. Thanks for posting, Mr. Hines, and for linkage. As painful and triggering, on many levels, as it is – well, I now have more room for books that were NOT written by abusive, enabling, repugnant…persons.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 25, 2014 @ 10:54 am
Siduri, I broke the story that no one else had (or apparently knew) despite it starting more than forty years ago.
I’ve been dealing with that, and reading all the MZB/Breen related stuff, for at least four hours every single day.
So you’ll pardon me if I don’t have the sanity points–or time–to dig through a bunch of research about a different sexual predator in an organization MZB co-founded.
And that’s as polite as I can possibly be.
AKelley
June 25, 2014 @ 11:22 am
I agree about this, so much.
Whenever a sexual scandal erupts, there are always people who bring up the argument of false accusations — which are, in truth, extraordinarily rare — and ruined reputations and innocent behavior misunderstood and witch hunts as they push back against any investigation or attempt to make a safer environment.
What they do not seem to realize is that a safe environment for *everybody* is much better created without secrecy and hushing up.
Rather than relying on closing ranks to protect the reputation of the community and gossip to inform victims of their danger, which historically has only ever led to more and worse abuse and freedom for predators, a safer, more humane, more liveable community is made by using clear, open public procedures with careful weighing of evidence and professional investigation and judgement.
All secrecy and silencing does is lead to decades of child rape and protection of the predators who squirm their way into safe-seeming social groups, not to mention the regular explosion of scandals like this and decades and decades of whispering campaigns with no real recourse.
The people who always speak up worry about the reputations of people falsely accused.
Surely those reputations are best protected when evidence is openly weighed and examined, rather than relying on secretive back channels and gossip.
celli
June 25, 2014 @ 11:39 am
Mary, I don’t know what citation Laura was looking for, but I’m not comfortable with your categorization of children who report sexual abuse:
“now the onus is the other way around and children now use this as leverage to terrorize another adult into doing what they want”
“whereas in today’s society…the kids is listened to solely…and sometimes falsely”
I have some links here with studies that suggest the opposite: that child sexual abuse is often understated/under-reported, and that the incidence of false accusations is low.
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
http://www.sidran.org/pdf/Falsereportsbychildren.pdf
http://www.nationalcac.org/professionals/images/stories/pdfs/recantations%20and%20false%20allegations%20biblography%20updated2.pdf
Jim C. Hines
June 25, 2014 @ 12:48 pm
Unless the SCA case is directly relevant to MZB and her daughter’s revelations, I’m going to ask that we let this particular comment subthread die. Thanks!
Michaele Jordan
June 25, 2014 @ 12:57 pm
Sandi, perhaps you’ve just been skimming the remarks here (which are voluminous by now) but it has been pointed out a number of times that this is NOT the case of a woman disbelieving the accusations against her beloved spouse. This is a case of a woman who–by her own admission–supported and participated in his actions.
Michaele Jordan
June 25, 2014 @ 1:14 pm
You speak of Rashoman, but be it pure fiction or based on fact, that classic was about 4 different and completely contradictory versions–each dependent on a different viewpoint–of what happened. In this case, all the principals are in (the child, the mother, and, if not the father, then the court that convicted him) are in substantial agreement about what happened. Discussion (obviously lengthy discussion) now can only focus on what could or should, then or now, be done about it. And yes, personal friends and devoted fans, are arguing that maybe it didn’t really happen–but they are all peripheral, and basically their opinion of what happened isn’t relevant, since, again, the principals all confirm it.
pat
June 25, 2014 @ 2:01 pm
I began reading MZB’s work as a young teen, in the very early 70s. Star of Danger, which is a very Heinleinish juvie sort of work was one of the first. Over the years, as I went to college and became a young adult, I purchased all her books as soon as they were issued. I recommended them and gave them to others. Many of her themes – that of the social structure and choices for women, on Darkover and compared to then current times, were very pertinent. I admired her characterizations and her world building, though I thought her plotting and narrative could be clumsy and flawed at times. As I became involved in fandom in that period, I met those who only spoke highly of her and thought her admirable. So these latest revelations about her are not just the mere shock of another popular figure falling off a pedestal, but someone who’s been part of my reading life since I was just a child.
But while I agree, and in the past thought, that some of her themes were laudable, some parts of her work has always really disturbed me. One of the earlier posters in this thread commented how he or she felt that in with her themes of choices were women, and acceptance of varying gender relationships, which were issues people were promoting at the time, were issues regarding tolerance toward child sexual abusers. Until today, I never heard anyone agree with me on that.
Much as I loved Heritage of Hastur, I couldn’t understand or accept Dani accepting Dyan as a foster parent after Dyan’s rape and torture of him. I thought it was horrible. I couldn’t understand it. The same for Catchtrap — I loved the circus lives and flying details — but Mario’s rape and abuse of Tommy was impossible for me to accept. In both cases, at the resolution of the works, Marion has the abused children loving or at least condoning their abusers. And who also can forget Inheritor, where the female protagonist accepts her lover torturing and killing a cat for spiritual power (remember Moira now claims Marion killed a mother cat), and sacrificing an autistic child and later her own sister, for the lover to regain his own artistic status. I’m also chilled remembering how Moira claims that Marion “acted out” her characters at the time she was writing them. When I first read Inheritor, I was a new homeowner the female protagonist’s, and loved the initial themes of a young women buying a new home and having spooky things happen. The horrors that followed in the book and Leslye’s (the protagonist’s) condoning of her lover’s evil (because she loved him) was beyond my comprehension. Now I think how relevant to Marion herself.
The themes are intermingled in I think all of her works. According to some accounts, Marion was opposed to Nambla. In other accounts, that she might have to some extent supported Walter’s beliefs – she edited his book by some accounts.
If reading about social themes makes us think, and perhaps leads us to acceptance, then when we regard MZB’s work, how can we credit her support of women’s independence in some ways, and yet not disregard that in some of the same works, she’s condoning, even excusing her protagonists who are child rapists? Perhaps it was unconscious on her part. Perhaps deliberate. As a child and young adult, that dual acceptance of two wildly differing social mores has always bothered me – a puzzle I couldn’t understand – perhaps which made her work stick in my mind.
As a child, I read pretty much whatever I wanted, and thought myself very mature. I would have been the last person to consider banning or censuring any works. It’s a complicated subject. Literature often helps us define social issues. Who is to say those issues can only be written about by good people? And it is pretty clear Marion was far from that. And science fiction, fantasy, has long been a place where societal roles can be deconstructed for analysis. But in MZB’s work, the positive themes of acceptance of individuals outside of societal roles – for women apart from their traditional roles of wives and mothers, for issues of gender — also sit side by side with some pretty horrific character justifications for child rape, abuse and torture. And hearing from victims of where those characters and themes stem from in MZB’s personal life, it tends for me to overcolor all her works. Even if those themes were only a small percentage of characters/themes in a book, or in her works as a whole.
Before these revelations, their existence puzzled and disturbed me. When I first read them, as a child or young adult, I thought my interpretation of what the author was saying was either misconstrued on my part or clumsy incomplete writing on hers – and MZB could be clumsy and incomplete. Now it’s pretty clear there was nothing clumsy or incomplete in her dual messages. They were both there to be read. I never understood how she could condone her abusers, or believed that she really was doing that. But in the light of these revelations, it seems she was now. And while I still have trouble with the idea of banning or censuring books, when I look back at Marion’s work, maybe there’s some merit there.
The_L
June 25, 2014 @ 2:26 pm
The scary thing to me is, MZB’s been dead for a good 15 years or so. And this is just now coming out.
I discovered MZB after her death (2008, I think). I read every book the library had with her name on it. I was constantly chomping at the bit for more and was always SO sad she wasn’t around anymore to write more.
And the whole time, I was singing the praises of a child molester. I had literally no clue. If she’d still been alive and I’d known her personally, I might still not have known. That’s terrifying. It’s like, who else am I a fan of who’s done unspeakably bad things to other people?
Emily
June 25, 2014 @ 3:24 pm
Apart from the obvious (murder is wrong, what if you get the wrong person) there’s also practical reasons why this sort of reaction is bad for victims.
Many people have extremely conflicted feelings about their abusers, particularly when they’re children. Being afraid that terrible things will happen to their ‘friend’ if they tell anyone motivates them to keep quiet.
This sort of extreme reaction also makes it hard for friends and acquaintances of the abuser. Not only may they want to protect their friend from death, but believing that molesters are 100% evil beasts to be killed makes it hard for them to accept that a friend who they know positive things about can also be capable of great evil. The cognitive dissonance kicks in and they deny evidence even to its face.
We can see that sort of thing going on here. People know good things about MZB, good works that she’s done, beautiful things that she’s written – they cannot reconcile that with ‘monster who should have been destroyed long ago’.
Jim C. Hines
June 25, 2014 @ 3:29 pm
I think one piece of this is the difference between emotions and actions.
It’s very normal to feel angry and helpless when hearing about this sort of revelation, and to fantasize about doing *something*. When I’ve spoken to friends and loved ones who were raped, I imagined all sorts of things I wanted to do to punish their abusers. For me, that was one way to process through all of that rage and powerlessness.
That doesn’t mean I acted on those fantasies, and I’m not saying that anyone should. But I also understand where those fantasies come from, if that makes sense.
Emily
June 25, 2014 @ 3:32 pm
The one (her husband’s abuse and her knowledge of it) is pretty much proven, documented in multiple sources, and was apparently an open secret for decades. It’s a completely classic case of a ‘childish’ adult ‘befriending’ every child he could lay his hands on. Sometimes in public. Often caught. Everyone knew.
The other is only just now coming out at all. No one knew.
Ceallaigh
June 25, 2014 @ 5:49 pm
Like some others, I didn’t know about this matter, and I’m grateful to those who brought it to my attention via their Internet posts. I loved…love…The Mists of Avalon. It was formative reading in my youth. I can’t un-read it, and I can’t un-love it, no matter how much I want to right now. My relationship with the book is complicated now, and sad.
But I would rather have a complicated and sad relationship with a book than condone the abuse of children, especially if I am the woman MZB’s characters helped me to become.
And I would hope that I am that woman. I wish she had been that woman for the children in her life.
This is so awful.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 25, 2014 @ 6:05 pm
You love what you love. It may be more difficult to reread because of what’s happened Some books I’ve loved I’ve chosen not to reread after things come out. (OSC’s Speaker for the Dead)
It’s for people who loved her work that I wrote this on one of my entries:
Many of us have been through some really dark times, and we have the pieces that spoke to our hearts that got us through those times. It genuinely gives me no joy to know that, for those whom MZB’s works were those pieces, I’ve dislodged that for them.
Ceallaigh
June 25, 2014 @ 6:35 pm
You haven’t dislodged anything, for me or anyone else. Marion Zimmer Bradley did that for herself.
What you did was write bravely about a hard thing. Thank you.
Mary
June 25, 2014 @ 6:47 pm
Celi – I appreciate what you are saying, but I have witnessed children tell their daycare teachers “If we can’t watch Bambi, I’m telling my mommy you touched me in my privates” and seen the shocked look on the teacher’s face, cameras in the room show this never happened…but cameras had to be installed so these kids couldn’t make unjustified accusations. Why? BECAUSE KIDS ARE DOING IT!
I’ve heard kids with diagnosis such as Reactive Attachment Disorder, or Mood Disorders, or Bi-polar, make threats along these same lines. It’s terrifying the amount of power placed into these children’s unstable hands. The power is in their hands and some teachers and parents are terrified that their “little darling” is going to have them labeled as a pedophile if the parent or teacher doesn’t cave in to the blackmail.
I’m not going to sit here and debate what has been witnessed by many teachers around the country…nor many therapists as they dig through trying to figure out truth…and many families that have been torn apart by false allegations just to keep some sense of family together.
Is there real child abuse ABSOLUTELY. But when society allows a pissed off child to manipulate a parent or teacher with such allegations, with no sense of balance to offset… then it’s not about justice…it’s about a witchhunt. I’m seeing threads on here where people are claiming Moria talks about “Satanic abuse”…Really? Please document that for me? From everything I’m seeing, Moria has not come out publically about any of it…and it’s all third party saying that she said something…but I’ve not seen documentation claiming anything about Satanic anything….and certainly nothing from Moria herself.
Is child abuse underreported. Yes. That doesn’t change that there are children using outcries to gain attention, money, revenge and more. This does not change that society needs to find the balance that protects the child, and the innocent adults that get caught up in the childish whims of an immature individual who most likely really doesn’t understand the long term impact of their false outcries.
What I see here is partly a community trying to heal from horrid news…and another part of the community trying to stir up more drama and schism to bring on more hysteria.
What should the community have done?
Follow the constitution: Innocent until proven guilty.
What did the community do?
Followed the constitution: Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
What should MZB have done? It’s irrelevant. Through compliancy, she allowed the abuse to continue even after she separated by not reporting it.
Why? It doesn’t matter. And she’s dead, and cannot speak for herself anymore than through the deposition she provided. So could of, should of, might have…really doesn’t matter.
You have the information you have. Make your own decisions. But do not attack what other people have personally been through, or witnessed, just because it was not a part of your own painted world. There are a lot of us on here who survived abuse…and we too have to come to terms with all this. Debating the validity of what we’ve seen, what we’ve witnessed…you’re just as bad as the ones who told us to shut up, it’s not that bad, you need to get along with others, you shouldn’t have worn those shorts, and more. It’s not your world… but don’t try to tell me that what I’ve seen and what I’ve heard isn’t happening.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 25, 2014 @ 6:54 pm
Mary,
I’m guessing you haven’t read most of the source material. Which is okay. I know how hard it is to read.
I’d like you to consider that the reason MZB and Breen married is that: a) they had similar orientations (and I don’t mean they were lesbian/gay), and b) they got each other on a fundamental level that is squicky.
Marion copyedited Breen’s pederasty book.
It wasn’t complacency. She didn’t act until she feared losing her home and livelihood.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 25, 2014 @ 6:55 pm
Moira was the brave one. I just stood beside her and gave her as safe a space as possible.
Jim C. Hines
June 25, 2014 @ 6:58 pm
Every legitimate study I’ve seen found false reports of rape and sexual abuse to be uncommon. Further, we will not be getting into debates about false reports here. I see no reason to question the validity of the emails and comments Moira has posted.
This particular comment thread is closed. Thank you.
Ceallaigh
June 25, 2014 @ 7:14 pm
You are right to say so. Moira was incredibly brave. I wish her peace.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 25, 2014 @ 7:36 pm
Me too.
She’s performing an opera over the next few weeks, and the dress rehearsals went well.
John Barnes
June 26, 2014 @ 3:24 am
Well, I hadn’t thought I’d be commenting but I guess I am. I didn’t like the little of Mists of Avalon I read, but I loved the hell out of Darkover in the late 70s and early 80s, though it was clear it had passed its peak. After the early experiments when it wasn’t yet worked out (by her own admission MZB kept few notes), there was a string of really vivid, gripping stories on one of the most thoroughly imagined SF worlds ever; for competition in vivid worldbuilding and history building you really have to go to Kim Stanley Robinson, C.J.Cherryh, Frank Herbert.
When humans arrive on Darkover (through some weird timewarpy thing the lost colony ship that crashes there has been thrown so far back into the past that it’s roughly contemporary with the last Ice Age on Earth), there are at least five sapient species there and all are telepathic to some degree, plus what appear to be telepathic apes or sasquatches, and there have been multiple rises and falls. Something in the air/soil whatever, I don’t know if she ever explained it, makes the humans start turning telepathic too.
Now here’s the creepy thing about it in retrospect: the telepathy effectively blurs all the boundaries of consent (and also, everyone seems to be into having sex with all the other species). No can mean yes because the telepathic aggressor knows what the victim “really” wants, strong telepaths can change weak telepaths minds about it, etc. Moreover, one very delicate physically small species that through a combination of similarity and telepathic suggestion is able to infiltrate humankind and “pass” as women or children, has odd genitalia that are quite small, must be handled very carefully, etc. and is also extremely submissive, and in the book I remember, has a definite urge, or at least some of them do, to have sex with human males.
I heard about Breen very early on compared to most, maybe the mid 1970s, because I was going to cons and I was a teenager and it was just floated around that “hey, you’re too old for this creepy guy but if you see him moving on a younger kid, give a holler to the con authorities and DON’T let it get out of your sight and it’s NOT harmless.” I don’t remember which fan specifically tipped me to it, it would have been in Cleveland, Detroit or Columbus, and I don’t think Breen was at any conventions; it was part of a general warning.
I remember with disgust that I used to feel so sorry for poor Marion, stuck with such a horrible husband.
I don’t think I’ll re-read Darkover again. I think that any good influence it had has been had, and that my memories of it are almost certainly better than what it would be like now, anyway. But mainly there is a lurking little voice in the back of my head saying, no, no, no. Everything good you ever loved would be spoiled.
Sylvia
June 26, 2014 @ 7:48 am
http://www.restorativejustice.org/press-room/07kindscrimes/sex-offences
JuliaSouthwick
June 26, 2014 @ 9:47 am
Is anyone at all considering the massive neon red flag that something was terribly wrong with her right there in Mists of Avalon? I have been reading about this scandal since 10 pm (it’s now 7:45 am), literally non stop, hunting for even one person to point out that Mists of Avalon has a scene, during some fertility festival, where an old man RAPES a little girl. And it’s ROMANTICIZED– written to be beautiful (which makes it even more horrific, IMO)! If I’m not mistaken, she writes that the little girl struggled at first, but then gave in. Seriously?!?! And people are shocked?! I mean, hindsight being what it is, how is nobody pointing this out? How on earth can anyone be so surprised by what her daughter has said if they’ve read that book, if they’ve read that severely disturbing scene? Good grief, when I read it 14 years ago I had to stop reading and go chain smoke for a good while because it disturbed me so much. It’s why I even remember her name! Smh.
Victims | www.jyotipandey.org
June 26, 2014 @ 10:14 am
[…] […]
Rita Rippetoe
June 26, 2014 @ 3:38 pm
I had completely forgotten the child rape in Mists of Avalon, surprising since I found so much else to object to in this supposedly feminist and pagan-friendly work. Why are there so few (any?) good mothers in the work? Why do priestesses of a mother goddess not seem to mother their own children? Or one another’s children, for that matter. Who would be dumb enough to give your kingly heir, carefully bred to bridge the gap between Christian and Pagan, to Christians to raise, then run him through a sexual initiation rite with his own half sister that is guaranteed to shack and repel him? So the priestesses are lousy mothers and clueless about human nature and this somehow makes a feminist and pro-pagan work. Give me a break. I’m not saying every female in a novel has to be good, or smart for the work to be feminist, but a few would be nice.
As for MZB having been pagan friendly, I remember the furor when she published a book featuring evil witch coven planning human sacrifice (Inheritors?). She _excused_ it by saying that 1) she was not a witch (true so far as I know, but she did hang out with Witches, including being a speaker at a meeting of the Covenant of the Goddess sometime in the 80s) and that 2) she actually knew of such a group from early in her life. Wow, thanks for being a friend. Yet she let Pagan groups meet on her property and participated in Spiral Dance, a Pagan group.
I was not in fandom, so I don’t recall hearing anything about Breen. I only read two Darkover novels, the ones with the League of Free Amazons, that were pressed upon me by feminist fans. Didn’t realize the oddness of Mists until I reread it for a course in Arthurian fiction in the 90s.
YaguaraSehkmet
June 26, 2014 @ 5:50 pm
It is a natural aspect of the way our brains function to want to categorize things. Life is so much easier when we can fit things neatly into discrete little boxes, slap a label on them, and be done with it. Human beings, however, are not neat things and I believe it would be the wrong decision in this case.
It does not surprise me to learn of MZB’s crimes and I absolutely believe Moria’s statements to be true. There was always something in her mother’s works that was off-putting to me. Perhaps my subconcious was warning me of the monster behind the words or perhaps I just didn’t like her writing. I cannot honestly say as my gut-reaction to crimes (especially sexual crimes) against children is frighteningly violent. I would never deny that the woman Moria describes was a horrific monster who should be destroyed. Were she alive today I would hope that the jury would gladly hand down a death penalty decision in such a case. I believe that such predators will never be anything less than a terrible threat to the community around them. Had Breen faced capitol punishment with his first conviction – how many other victims would have been spared? Those people who deny her crimes or attempt to excuse them are blinding themselves.
That being said, it is also wrong to deny the impact her works had on many readers, several authors, and the literature as a whole. Several people have commented on the “seperate the art from the artist” concept. This is not only inaccurate – it is impossible. Artists always express themselves in their art and there is often a certain creativity in madness. I do not belive that we are doing any good by seperating the artist from the art but I do believe that we should not ignore the impact of the art because of the crimes of the artist.
I have read (on other sites) posters calling for the elimination of her books from literature coursework, store shelves, and even suggestions of book burning. That is a very dangerous road to travel and it ends in a very bad place. If you decide for yourself to avoid her works and throw out your copies of her books then I support your decision and commend you for taking a moral stand on your beliefs. But if you would make that choice for someone else or deny their right to make a different choice then I must stand opposed to you – no matter that I too would toss out any of MZB’s books if I had any.
There is value to be had in an examination of MZB’s works from a literary perspective and from a psychological perspective. Her place in the history of fandom and science ficiton and fantasy literature is important and the revelations of her crimes does not diminsh that. Quite the opposite, IMHO. MZB’s personal story is both laudeable and cautionary. Laudable for the good things that her works brought to the genre and the community. Cautionary for the warning that no matter how much admiration we may have for someone or for their contributions to our favorite artform – it must NEVER excuse their crimes against others.
As painful and gut-wrenching as it may be to see both the good and the bad even in the monsters. It is important that we force ourselves to do so. We must not deny the art because of the crime. We must not deny the crime because of the art. We must see the whole truth with open eyes – only then can we learn from them.
One final comment to Moria directly. You have survived a hell that many do not. Only the greatest heroes can survive the agony and madness of an evil parent. You may not realize it but you are one of those heroes. I do not know you but I greatly admire you.
pat
June 26, 2014 @ 5:58 pm
Honestly, for people who were reading Darkover and other series long before Mists, child rape was not an uncommon theme in her narratives, either of girls or of boys. What was hard to discern was the *message* the author had over child rape — as I said, Dani is raped and tortured by Dyan in Heritage of Hastur. Tommy is abused, sexually and physically by Mario/Matt in Catchtrap. Most of her girls in Darkover were married as young teens, more or less at puberty and often against their will. So the theme was not uncommon.
At the same time, to me, her message was not clear. Certainly in her earlier works she was writing as someone opposed to marrying off girls – or boys – as “breeding stock” – a common theme in Darkover. But she also had a Darkovan customary period where due to flowers or moon cycles, everyone went mad and raped everyone – boys, girls, whatever. So that was a theme long before Mists. She allegedly wrote Catchtrap in 1948, which involved Tommy’s molestation by Matt and his physical abuse of Tommy. Now rape is not an uncommon theme in literature – Pat Conroy has hardly written a novel without a rape scene. So I never thought that made Marion a proponent or excuser of sexual abuse.
On the other hand, while her narratives often condemn rigid roles for women, and other social issues, she doesn’t really come down hard against many of her child abusers. Those who are main characters (Matt, Dyan) are often forgiven for their abuse, even loved by the abusers, in part because the abusers were mercurical, mad, whatever. That license was always something of a puzzle to me. As a reader, I couldn’t identify with Dani when he accepts Dyan and lets himself be adopted by the man who had previously enjoyed sexually terrorizing him. I always frankly felt either Marion had written these endings clumsily – i.e., she had boxed herself into a corner, plot wise and had to have that reconciliation to wrap up the story, or that I just wasn’t understand the message that she was writing. I thought perhaps she had written the characterization as well as the plot clumsily, to get herself to that point and that it wasn’t an intentional whitewash of the previous events. What has come out clears up some of that ambivalence and not in a good way.
But I am still puzzled and troubled. Now that Moira has come out about this, I hope she writes a biography, if not of her mother, then of herself. I think it will be cathartic for her, and also for Marion’s long time readers — hard to call us fans at this point — many of whom are reeling from this revelation. I don’t mean this from a prurient perspective. I think there is a moral lesson, in that based on what Moira has claimed, and the depositions, a lot of people turned away from seeing this abuse, and that needs to change. I wish I had heard, because I wouldn’t have been a reader of her books for decades. But also, a lot of us were children when we picked up MZB books. I was. I read the feminist messages, some of which had value – but also took in the disturbing mixed messages regarding child abuse and rape. I had trouble reconciling those then, as well as trouble reconciling the news now. A thoughtful biography might bring us all some closure.
HelenS
June 26, 2014 @ 7:45 pm
The discussion at http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1670558-why-is-child-rape-explained-as-something-natural-in-this-book shows just how far people can stretch to justify that scene (honestly? a “little girl” can’t possibly be REALLY a “little girl” in the usual meaning of those words? she’s just, I dunno, really short or something?).
Rin/DarkBlade
June 26, 2014 @ 11:43 pm
Jim, thank you for posting this.
Something I’ve been struggling with isn’t just how to react to Marion Zimmer Bradley’s work now that I know this, but that some of my favorite authors, a couple of them people whose work honestly helped me manage to keep my sanity in middle and high school, got started in MZB’s anthologies and magazines. Some of those authors have in the past said that they were mentored by MZB. I keep seeing that some of this was known, an open secret that fandom kept quiet. The question I keep wondering is “Dear gods… did [author] KNOW?” But that seems a helluva thing to write to someone to ask. “Hello, author person who I have looked up to/enjoyed your work for [x] years, did you know about your deceased friend and mentor’s roles in the abuse and molestation of children before it hit the fan on social media? Were you aware of it when she was still alive? If so, what did you do with that knowledge?” The phrasing could be better, but that’s pretty much what it boils down to.
It seems like a horribly rude thing to ask. Though, to my shame, I can’t figure out if my hesitancy to actually inquire is because it seems rude, or if it’s because I can’t yet figure out what to do if the answer is yes… all I know so far is that I end up nauseated with a tension headache every time I’ve tried to sit down and figure this out.
Any thoughts?
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 26, 2014 @ 11:46 pm
Deborah J. Ross has said that she didn’t know, and she’s arguably one of the closer friends of Marion’s
Here’s her post:
http://deborahjross.livejournal.com/319803.html
Ramona
June 27, 2014 @ 12:12 am
Rim/Darkblade
Yes, I feel much the same way. I have been thinking about crafting a respectful message to ask Diana Paxson those questions. I haven’t yet. I don’t want to offend her but it is somehow important to me that I know.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
June 27, 2014 @ 12:16 am
I’d been considering the same thing, but I’m all out of spoons. I also don’t know Diana particularly well. Her husband, Jon de Cles, was Marion’s adopted brother.
Lenora Rose
June 27, 2014 @ 12:43 am
One note: Moira, not Moria. The former is a person, the latter is a mine.
craniest
June 27, 2014 @ 1:39 am
I had a short story rejected from Sword and Sorceress. Because of content. Because the male character was raped and the female character avenged it beautifully. MZB herself said that she did not finish the story from that point.
I wish I’d kept the rejection letter, because I laughed for DAYS about how if the two had been reversed it would have at least been considered. In light of the revelations since then, all I can say is that I’m glad I never sold a damn thing to her and I’m glad to have provided her with even a moment’s discomfort about it.
SFF community reeling after Marion Zimmer Bradley’s daughter accuses her of abuse | samacharyug.com
June 27, 2014 @ 5:07 am
[…] Jim Hines, who received his “very first rejection letter” from Bradley, and who went on to sell stories to to Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Fantasy Magazine and to her anthology Sword & Sorceress XXI, wrote on his blog: “I’m proud of those stories. I believe the Sword & Sorceress series was important, and I’m grateful to Bradley for creating it. I believe her magazine helped a lot of new writers, and her books helped countless readers. All of which makes the revelations about Marion Zimmer Bradley protecting a known child rapist and molesting her own daughter and others even more tragic.” […]
Teresa
June 27, 2014 @ 6:18 am
I’ve spent the past two days reading blogs, emails, and depositions, trying to formulate some kind of coherent reaction… coming up, on occasion to look around at -anything- that was not of this, trying to let my mind rest somewhere safe.
There are words, but not the right ones. There is reaction, but not that I can articulate. I am in need of the brain bleach, but not so much that I forget- just a blurring of details. A vivid imagination is a curse more times than not.
People are Sick.
This touches many things: the books that I love, the ‘Dream’, people I know that I now wonder ‘were they There? did they See or Hear?’ the thoughts running around in here are making me want to scream… or cry. I can only imagine what it must be like on the other side of this, looking out from this situation instead of in.
My heart goes out to all who were children touched by this ugliness in the hope they have found healing and some amount of peace. To Moira, I am sorry that this is news to any of us at this late date. FWIW *HUGS*
SFF community reeling after Marion Zimmer Bradley’s daughter accuses her of abuse | TV Flix
June 27, 2014 @ 8:58 am
[…] Jim Hines[10], who received his “very first rejection letter” from Bradley, and who went on to sell stories to to Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Fantasy Magazine and to her anthology Sword & Sorceress XXI, wrote on his blog: “I’m proud of those stories. I believe the Sword & Sorceress series was important, and I’m grateful to Bradley for creating it. I believe her magazine helped a lot of new writers, and her books helped countless readers. All of which makes the revelations about Marion Zimmer Bradley protecting a known child rapist and molesting her own daughter and others even more tragic.” […]
Jim C. Hines
June 27, 2014 @ 9:21 am
Rin/DarkBlade,
I don’t have any easy answers on this one. While it sounds like a number of people were aware of Breen’s crimes, at least to some extent, I’m less certain about MZB’s. The Breendoggle wiki and the depositions, both of which have been linked to, include some of the people who had an idea what was going on.
Beyond that, all I can really say is that for myself, I’ve chosen not to contact other individuals directly to ask about their involvement, if any.
Morgan
June 27, 2014 @ 3:42 pm
Thanks so much for writing this post, Jim. I agree with you completely. I run a used bookstore, and I am pulling all of Bradley’s books from my shelves indefinitely. I am a survivor of abuse myself, and I don’t want to run the risk of someone feeling triggered just by seeing her books on the shelves when they walk into my store. I know that may not ever happen even if I left her books on shelf. But it could. And I can’t stand the thought of helping trigger that trauma in another person when it’s so very avoidable.
I will probably keep my personal copy of The Mists of Avalon, at least for now, as the story meant a lot to me when I was younger. But I doubt I will ever buy or sell another book by Bradley again.
Morgan
June 27, 2014 @ 3:53 pm
The scenes of child rape in Mists deeply disconcerted me the first and only time I read the book. I think they are probably, subconsciously, a large part of the reason I’ve never re-read it since the first time I picked it up at 18. (I’m now 31.)
I wish I had been a bit older and a bit more mature when I read it. I do think it would have raised serious red flags for me if I’d read it, say, a year ago, even before we knew about the awful things Bradley did to real children. I wish I’d had the ability to understand, at 18, that my instincts to be upset and uncomfortable were right, and that this wasn’t just one of the most “adult” fantasy novels I’d yet read.
greek_jester
June 27, 2014 @ 7:55 pm
This is horrific. Absolutely horrific.
People knew about this abuse and did *nothing*? How have they have not been arrested for contributing towards the abuse of a minor?
As to those asking why it is only coming out now, 15 years after her death, I have 4 words for you: Jimmy Savile rape accusations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile
Between the more open attitude towards victims of abuse in the last few years, and the power of social media that allows a message to be spread too far for the “let’s keep it quiet” brigade to smother it in time, victims of high-status abusers feel more capable of coming forwards.
Are there those who jump on the bandwagon and try for fame/money? Yes. Are there many, many more victims who finally feel as if people will listen to them? *Hell* yes.
Hopefully the courage of those like Moira will allow a few more high-status predators to be toppled; the wake of the Jimmy Savile scandal in the UK has certainly led to quite a few accusations since then, several of which have led to convictions.
Nalini Haynes
June 27, 2014 @ 8:06 pm
I don’t know about laws in the US but in a terrible case in Australia, not only did a woman only get 4 years for premeditated murder of her boyfriend but her best friend who knew and did nothing got a ‘not guilty’ and none of the other people who knew and did nothing even ended up in court. Look up “Joe Cinque’s Consolation”. I reviewed the book but didn’t say much about the story because I didn’t want to spoilt it for those who haven’t read it. http://www.darkmatterzine.com/joe-cinques-consolation/
Carradee
June 27, 2014 @ 8:14 pm
Not true. My family regularly practices psychological torture techniques used in brainwashing. The psychological abuse, emotional abuse, emotional neglect, and physical neglect was so pervasive that I was CONVINCED I was just odd and had communication issues with my parents and brother.
Due to everything, my memory is not entirely intact. There are gaps. There are a lot of gaps. But I remember asking others, “Is this behavior normal?” when I was 12. I remember being considered a liar well before that.
Most responded, “Everyone does that sometimes.” A few asked if what I described happened often, and when I said it did, I was told I’d appreciate my parents when I got older.
I was choked once. Even at the time, what bothered me wasn’t that I was choked—it was that my brother denied doing it immediately afterwards. (He still insists I made it up.)
It took 26 years and nearly experiencing a nervous breakdown to realize that my “oddities” and other details that my family harasses me about as things “wrong” with me? Are actually signature symptoms of PTSD, caused by those things. This is despite me being very rational, reasonable, logical, and intellectual. I also have a fairly high IQ.
My family isn’t stupid, either. The vast majority of everything is done without witnesses or evidence, and I’ve always gotten in trouble for compiling evidence or talking to someone else. They’re very good at red herring and straw men arguments that conflate issues or misquote things ever-so-slightly. If I do make a solid counterargument, I’m ignored, accused of never being willing to admit when you’re wrong, and/or accused of making things up.
I’m 27. It’s only been in the past year that I’ve started paying attention and realizing just how bad things are—and despite my even having witnesses willing to testify on my behalf, multiple people (including the pastor) insist that I need to “reconcile” with my parents and have repeatedly refused to so much as meet with my witnesses.
So to those of you saying children are necessarily believed instead of parents, think again.
Amy C
June 27, 2014 @ 8:20 pm
Mary wrote:
The pendulum needs to swing into the middle…where calmer heads prevail. Should he have been “banned” from the conventions? As a paid guest…yes. As an attendee…if he’s paying his way…there is no real way to stop that.
I cannot possibly disagree with you more. Yes, he should be been banned. Even as a paying guest. You don’t take his money, you don’t let him in. Because a convention has an obligation not to allow a know sexual predator access to other con-goers. This is NOT difficult.
I am saddened and sickened and horrified to learn that the author who created the Renunciates, who created Romily McAran, could have done such terrible things. I am sadder by far for the children who were not believed and the pain they suffered.
Losing Avalon | At Times I Almost Dream
June 27, 2014 @ 11:15 pm
[…] Rape, Abuse, and Marion Zimmer Bradley […]
Robert Wood
June 28, 2014 @ 7:03 pm
I didn’t know that about Jauss, but it doesn’t really change my reading of him. I can’t help but notice that the person who actually came up with the concept of deconstruction has disappeared from this narrative, Jacques Derrida, who was neither a Waffen SS officer, nor a complete opportunist charlatan. I’m also not sure about the interpretation of both deconstruction and reception theory. The author is dead isn’t a notion of deconstruction, but is developed by Roland Barthes and Michel Foucault, both of who have a strong commitment to a strong form of social justice. Reception theory rather than looking at individual readers looks at the context that texts are produced to understand their formation. I’m not sure why that’s such a controversial idea.