Final Thoughts on Petitiongate
I haven’t been shy about sharing my opinion on a certain petition that’s been causing some internet uproar. At the same time, it’s a fact that some intelligent people, some of whom I respect, signed the thing. (As did some people I don’t respect, and don’t consider particularly intelligent, but that’s the way it goes with just about any group.)
A part of me really wants to be done with this conversation. But I also want to understand why these people would sign something that, to me, is such blatant over-the-top fear-mongering and dog-whistling, with bonus helpings of rewritten history. I’ve spent some time trying to find people’s reasoning in their own words. I’m quoting them not because I want to point fingers or attack anyone, but to try to understand, and to process my own responses to their statements.
If I’ve misrepresented anyone’s views with these quotes, please let me know so I can make the appropriate corrections.
This is a very long post about a topic that’s already been beaten to death and brought back in zombie form and strung up as the world’s most gruesome pinata, so I totally understand and respect anyone who chooses not to wade through another round. Have some emergency kittens instead.
Paul Levinson: [O]f course this is not literally a First Amendment issue, since there’s no Congressional or local state (unconstitutional via the 14th Amendment) censorship. But it is in effect a First Amendment issue, because it would result in censorship, and therefore is inconsistent with the spirit of the First Amendment, in the same way, as say, CBS’s censorship of language at the Grammys.
Fair enough. I’ve given people crap in the past about not understanding the First Amendment. I still think it’s counterproductive to bring it up in this kind of conversation, but I can accept that signers didn’t literally think SFWA was in danger of violating the U.S. Bill of Rights. The issue is censorship.
So the question becomes, can what was proposed in the job posting for Bulletin Editor properly be called censorship?
Levinson (cont): Editors, individually or in concert, indeed engage in decisions about what to publish and what not, what to solicit as content in articles, all the time. But that doesn’t smack of censorship, and the violation of the First Amendment in spirit … which a board expressly created and convened for the sole purpose of judging whether an article meets certain linguistic etc standards does. At least, does to me, which is why I signed the petition…
I strongly object to the creation of an advisory board whose sole purpose would be to determine if the editor’s choices pass some sort of linguistic or moral muster.
If I’m understanding correctly, Levinson’s fear is that a board will be convened solely to judge linguistic and moral standards. That would be troubling to me as well, if it happened.
The job description said the editor will, “Participate in [the] proofing and review process with select volunteer and board members.” It also stated that the editor should solicit cover art and articles that fit within SFWA’s standards and vision.
To me, it’s a huge leap from that posted description to the fear of a Morality Board of Censorship. I’m guessing some of those fears come from different perspectives on what happened last year that led to the suspension of the Bulletin. Some saw what happened as an editor and two respected writers being mobbed out of their jobs by a vocal minority over a pulp cover and using the phrase “lady editor” in a column. If you subscribe to that view, and if you assume that this review process would be a continuation of that “mob,” then I suppose this fear would make sense.
I don’t want to rehash last year’s battles. But as someone who was in that last issue writing about this stuff, I will say that a lot of the characterization of what happened last year has been grossly oversimplified and distorted. What happened was the result of a series of (in my opinion) poor choices by the editor, authors, and the then-President of SFWA. (I’ll note that I like some of these people and consider them friends, but I still think they dropped the ball here.)
Robert Silverberg: Many veteran members of SFWA objected to the early text and have worked it over to keep it to the point that pre-censorship of published material is an Orwellian injury to free speech, period.
…One would hope that readers of SFWA’s magazine would not take offense at anything they read in a publication that is intended to help them in the pursuit of their professional careers, but the appropriate way of objecting to such offensive material would be to write a letter of protest to the magazine, not to force the editor to be overruled in advance by a committee that determines what might be deemed offensive.
If I’m reading this right, the fear here is similar to Levinson’s, that the Bulletin’s content would be restricted based on standards of “offensiveness.” Again, this is not what the job description said, and I assume the fear comes from a continuation of last year.
It feels like there’s been some conflation of “professional” with “unoffensive.” For example, consider a random scantily clad heroine on a cover. Is that offensive? Maybe, maybe not. But is it professional?
That depends on where it’s being published. The pin-up sensibilities of one of Seanan McGuire’s recent book covers was totally appropriate for that book. The same kind of artwork as the cover for the professional publication of a writers’ organization? Almost certainly unprofessional and inappropriate for that publication.
I agree with Silverberg that this magazine should be helpful to us as writers in pursuit of our professional careers. As such, isn’t material that’s not relevant to our careers, and/or is actively damaging (by diminishing or belittling other professional writers) inappropriate for the magazine?
Silverberg also mentioned letters to the magazine, and I agree with him that letters to the Bulletin are a good way for us to yell at each other. I also think the standards of what we publish in a letters column are different than the standards we should be using for paid articles in the Bulletin. If someone wants to write a letter decrying the fact that Jim C. Hines is OMG THE WORST THING EVER TO HAPPEN TO SF/F, that’s one thing. But the moment the Bulletin is paying someone to chew me out…? That’s a whole different story.
David Gerrold: I signed the petition for the same reason I wanted to strangle the little old lady in the brown dress who used to write memos on what we could say and do in a Star Trek script because NBC had “standards.”
I believe that that an authors’ publication should cherish freedom of speech. I also believe that freedom of speech is also the responsibility to speak well and wisely. I believe that each of us is entitled to embarrass ourselves in public as well.
And in addition to the above, I believe that freedom of speech is not a freedom from consequences and everyone else also should also have the same freedom to respond.
…The issue is that the mechanism for making sure that the Bulletin is more “inclusive” is setting off alarm bells, because of the possibility that mechanism could someday be abused — used to restrict what’s published in the bulletin.
I believe that if we truly respect each other as authors and editors that we should respect the independence of the SFWA editor to actually edit the damn thing — and respect the independence of the people whose work is published in it as well.
Not having worked in television, I don’t know what Gerrold experienced at NBC, but if he’s had previous experiences of feeling censored as a writer, I can understand how he’d be sensitive to anything that looks like it could lead to the same situation. But again, this isn’t an area where I have first-hand experience.
But Gerrold makes the same assumption here that the mechanism being described is about making the Bulletin “inclusive.” While I think inclusiveness is a good goal, and one that SFWA and SF/F in general need to work a hell of a lot harder at, that’s not what was written in the job posting.
I agree with Gerrold on freedom and responsibility for speech, and that free speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences.
And yes, working with volunteers and Board members could theoretically evolve into a situation where a group was refusing to publish articles by This Group or That Group or whatever. As authors, we’re good at imagining “What if…” and taking it both to plausible and completely absurd conclusions.
The thing is, the setup we’ve had all along, with the President overseeing the Bulletin and the editor, could just as easily be taken along a hypothetical path of Good Intentions to those conclusions. So could an unsupervised editor, for that matter. I don’t see it as remotely likely, and more importantly, I don’t see anything in this job posting to explain why this fear has suddenly become such an urgent matter.
Gregory Benford quotes James L. Cambias: “I think it all comes down to “who decides?” Naturally, nobody wants the Bulletin to be gratuitously offensive to its readers — but what a number of people, myself included, are afraid of is that “offensiveness” will be used as a club to bash dissenting voices. This is not a purely theoretical concern, either. I would much rather have a single editor, who is personally responsible for the magazine’s content, than some nebulous, anonymous “advisory committee” enforcing their ideas of what is or isn’t offensive. At best it will result in a magazine that’s dull and unadventurous. At worst it will continue the ideological winnowing of SFWA.”
Again, I assume “not a purely theoretical concern” refers to last year’s mess. And okay, you’d prefer a single editor with power over a committee. For a lot of things, so would I. I’ve worked on committee-style writing in my day job, and it’s painful. Excruciating, at times.
But once again, there’s a chain of assumptions here to get from the posted job description to a “nebulous, anonymous ‘advisory committee'” controlling the Bulletin along ideological lines based on what is or isn’t offensive.
And nobody, as far as I can tell, bothered to ask. Nobody contacted the Board to find out what was meant by that bullet point stating that the editor will, “[p]articipate in proofing and review process with select volunteer and board members.”
ETA: It was pointed out, correctly, that Truesdale did email Steven Gould about that bullet point, asking who the “overseer(s)” would be and how they would determine “appropriate” content for the Bulletin. Gould responded:
There will be no “informal” group overseeing the editor’s selection. There may be an advisory board, but that is yet to be determined. Under the structure of SFWA (both old and new bylaws), the president is responsible for publications … We don’t have guidelines for “acceptable” articles, art, and ads other than content needs to serve the needs of the organization. Chief among those are our 5 core mission areas: to inform, support, promote, defend and advocate for professional writers … However, when content alienates portions of our membership it is =not= meeting the needs of our members or our organization and this is part of the equation the editor will be considering that when they look at articles, illustrations, and ads.
To the best of my knowledge, there was no further inquiry by any of the signers, but that’s not the same as what I originally wrote here. My apologies for that mistake.
Amy Sterling Casil: I don’t want to see “chilling effects” – there should be an open dialog. I signed it on a pure first Amendment basis, which I requested be noted.
Depending on how you view Bulletingate, I suppose you could point to chilling effects. I know there are people who have assumed the complaints were a vocal minority of thin-skinned, overreacting individuals looking for offense. If you believe that, then yes, it would be consistent to develop a fear that you could be targeted next for the slightest offense.
And here’s where I run up against a wall. Because that’s so completely different from what I saw happen last year. I saw the SFWA Bulletin publish a series of unprofessional (and yes, at times offensive) material, including a poor choice of cover art, multiple articles that — perhaps unintentionally — referred to women in demeaning ways, and a follow-up article accusing critics of being “liberal fascists,” with comparisons to Stalin and Mao, along with references to “thought control.” An article the authors were paid for, in part from my dues.
If you feel that these were appropriate for a professional writers’ organization’s publication, that’s one thing. I would disagree very strongly, but I would understand a bit better where you’re coming from.
But nobody was fired over poor word choice. Nobody was fired over a single cover. Heck, I don’t know that anyone was fired, period. The editor chose to resign (though you could argue she was pushed into it — I don’t know what went on behind the scenes … and neither to most of the other people talking about it), and while I assume the Resnick/Malzberg column is gone, I don’t know the details there.
I don’t know how to wrap this up. I trust that the people who signed that thing believed they had a real and valid basis for their fears of what might happen, but I’m not seeing it. Sure, there are individuals on every side of every spectrum who can be jerks. But I don’t see anything to suggest that people would be banned from publishing in the Bulletin for being a jerk. They might be instructed to keep their paid article on-topic and save the jerkishness for their blog, but that’s a matter of professionalism. I wouldn’t expect the Bulletin to pay me for a 3000-word chat about the awesome LEGO tower I built with my kids, either. Not because SFWA is censoring LEGO-related content, but because it just doesn’t belong in our professional publication.
I believe the creator of that petition was deliberately trying to stir up shit, but I also believe the people who signed it genuinely felt it was an important and necessary stand to take for free speech and expression.
I believe that, but I still can’t bring myself to agree with it.
Fair warning: the comment-eating goblins are standing by if things get nasty or go off the rails.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 12:51 pm
I hope you saw my quote from the ACLU above. You think censorship is fine if it’s legal. I will continue to disagree.
Rachael Acks
February 17, 2014 @ 12:54 pm
Stop me if I’m wrong, but Jemisin wrote that in her blog, yes? Not in the Bulletin. So your point would be…?
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 12:55 pm
If you honestly think that a black woman describing a man’s attractiveness on her private blog is the equivalent of two white men reminiscing about a woman’s hotness in the pages of a professional organization’s trade publication you are…as disingenuous as if you were claiming that the statement that Barbie “conducts herself with quiet dignity, as a woman should” is equally directed at men.
So, pretty much par for the course, then.
And I believe you’ve just put the lie to the idea that y’all just signed the petition due to the lofty principles of free speech. Actually, you agree with Truesdale and Beale that there’s nothing wrong with the marginalization of women in the field. What a fucking surprise.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 12:55 pm
1. Who has ever said it does?
2. Who has ever said it does?
3. Who has ever it said it does?
So far as I know, those are all objections to things no one has said, but if you have links, I would appreciate them. Where censorship comes into play is when an invitation to speak or write is withdrawn for political reasons. That’s why the ACLU’s take on censoring Finkelstein at Clark continues to be relevant.
Pat Munson-Siter
February 17, 2014 @ 1:14 pm
Wow. Just wow. You know, the petition could have been written in about two or three paragraphs, without all the extra pages and pages of wordy windiness. Not only would it have taken out all the problematic language, but the point being made would have been a lot clearer, and perhaps have even made sense to a lot more people. As is, it ends up dragging in all sorts of unwanted wreakage.
1) We’re not comfortable wit the idea of an editorial board. What sort of powers will they have? Could they become censors instead of advisors?
2) There is talk about the Bulletin being held to certain standards, with the editor (and editorial board) being tasked to hold the Bulletin contents to those standards. But what are those standards to be? We don’t think this issue has been addressed adequately.
3) We want the SFWA officers to address these issues in far more detail and open up the subject to discussion of the membership.
There! See? Covers basically the core issues the Petition supposedly addresses, without all the pages and pages of tripe that leads to dragging in all sorts of baggage (which seems to be being dragged up on all sorts of internet forums at the moment anyway.) It removes all the implications that the liberals are trying to outshout the conservatives, or whatever categories one’s personal naming of the sides involves comes down to. It removes the obnoxious emotional overtones of, as far as I am concerned, both versions of the Petition.
These folks are experienced professional writers. Why the heck didn’t one of them take the time to rewrite the Petition into terms similar to what I’ve written above? As is, no matter how fancy you dress up the pig, it stays a pig. They would have been better throwing out the original petition and starting from scratch. Instead, a lot of folks are reading all sorts of things into the petition, from all sides, and not without cause.
And I want to add one thing to some of the discussions above. Age has little to do with it. I’ve met more than my share of bigoted, nasty young folks who spout the same things that the KKK used to spout, even if they’d then follow up by loudly proclaiming that they aren’t bigoted. Isn’t just the ‘old dinosaurs.’ Call them bigots, call them misguided, call them whatever – but age, in life outside fandom, isn’t always a deciding point on who holds what opinions. (And I’m a bit more than middle aged woman, btw.) Actually, I think the young bigots are far more dangerous to our society in the long run than the older ones are…
Rachael Acks
February 17, 2014 @ 1:23 pm
Are you of the opinion that an organization shouldn’t have the right to determine the content of its own publications and keep that content in line with its stated values? Or is this basically an extended slippery slope argument?
The ACLU does yeoman’s work and I regularly donate to them. That said, I can’t in good conscience agree with an absolute application of the ACLU’s stance here…because it comes back to having no obligation to provide a platform from which reprehensible opinions can be spoken.
If, for example, I invited someone to do a guest post on my blog and then later discovered (perhaps when they turned the post in and my horrified gaze fell upon what they’d written) that they were a white supremacist, the invitation would be withdrawn so fast it’d cause a friction burn. And I feel I would be well within my rights to not want to be associated with something I found so completely unacceptable. Would that be withdrawing the invitation on the ground of politics? I suppose some might argue so. And if my fictional white supremacist cried censorship, I’d tell them to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine, sideways. Am I, for example, morally obligated to keep giving Orson Scott Card my money?
If you are capable of taking such a purist stance, good on you, I suppose. But at that point I really would have to question the absolutism of the argument and its utility.
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 1:31 pm
Yes, and I’m laughing at your stubborn arguing over semantics. What part of “the ACLU is going too far in this instance” are you not allowing yourself to understand?
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 1:35 pm
It’s telling how you seize upon the one small point in Rev. Bob’s response which you think will support your contention while ignoring all the rest.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 1:36 pm
Universities have a special obligation to promote free speech due to the principles of academic freedom they are supposed to be committed to. SFWA does not.
There’s a difference between submitting something and having something changed after it has been accepted.
Congratulations on as fine a bit of hair-splitting as I’ve ever seen. I might agree, but the difference would be that the latter is called “editing.” Which brings us back to why you are so opposed to having multiple people, rather than only one, be responsible for editing.
On the other hand, I assume, then, that if final acceptance was withheld until after this editor had consulted with a review board, that your objections would be withdrawn. If that’s the relevant difference and all.
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 1:36 pm
Once more you seize upon one small point and ignore the rest. This tells me that you have no actual answers.
Will Shetterly
February 17, 2014 @ 2:05 pm
The rest of it is stuff I’ve dealt with before. There’s always Something Is Wrong On The Internet to deal with, if you don’t stop at some point, so I’m unsubscribing from the comments now.
Jonathon Side
February 17, 2014 @ 2:14 pm
No, that’s what you assume my assumption to be. But, since you’re unsubscribing from the comments I’ll leave it at that.
Jonathon Side
February 17, 2014 @ 2:16 pm
Mulling it over, I’ve come to conclude that freedom of expression is fine… but it should be a responsibility as well as a right.
To paraphrase, just because we can say a thing does not mean we must say that thing.
Jonathon Side
February 17, 2014 @ 2:22 pm
According to Robert Silverberg, he and Nancy Kress DID edit the petition.
Why they stopped where they did baffles me.
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 3:03 pm
Translation: “I have no actual argument so I’ll run away now.”
Jessica
February 17, 2014 @ 3:05 pm
Why they signed the thing at all is what baffles me.
Rev. Bob
February 17, 2014 @ 3:52 pm
The transition from the Hays code to the MPCC to the MPAA is instructive, and precisely why I mentioned it. The movie industry has gone from government censorship to private censorship to private ratings – a progressive loosening of restrictions. On top of that, nobody is forced to deal with the MPAA, and they exert no control over home video releases (witness all of the “unrated cut” releases). In short, the MPAA is a voluntary system. There are questions about why their standards are what they are (graphic violence vs. graphic sex, for instance), but they can’t force a film to be edited or even submitted for a rating.
That’s a pretty far cry from censorship of any kind. One might as well call UL a censor for imposing standards on electrical equipment.
Rev. Bob
February 17, 2014 @ 4:04 pm
…which is basically my point.
The petition seems to equate offensive statements with uncomfortable truths, and makes no provision for the concept that some offensive statements are untrue. By wrapping themselves in the flag and equating professional standards with censorship, they’re muddying the line between uncomfortable-true (valuable) and uncomfortable-false (worthless) and thus missing the entire point.
If the hypothetical review board were to spike an uncomfortable-true article, I would expect the editor to fight back. If they were to spike an uncomfortable-false article, I would expect the editor to accept the inherent reprimand.
It’s a very important difference, and from the available evidence, this is a level of oversight that the general membership wants to see. A petition should not be able to overrule that.
ReginaG
February 17, 2014 @ 4:30 pm
“I also wanted to point that people who may have suffered some kind of discrimination should be sensitive to how their words might concern others.”
This is the classic “Tone argument”. Fail.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 4:46 pm
I saw the quote; I’m inviting you to get the ACLU’s opinion on this instance. Your refusal to address that invitation suggests to me that on some level that is connected with reality, you know they would consider your position as silly as I do.
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 6:09 pm
Translation: what you have to say is old hat, but but what Will Shetterly says is blindingly original and important.
Rev. Bob
February 17, 2014 @ 6:38 pm
I think he just didn’t like getting caught in a trap. All the same, it’s pretty funny to see such a prolific commenter wither away when exposed.
“Oh, I’ve got other things to do. Very busy, you know…”
Veronica Schanoes
February 17, 2014 @ 8:35 pm
Right? This is Will Shetterly, right? He Who Lives For This Crap? Don’t say his name three times on the internet Will Shetterly? But all of a sudden he’s just so very busy…
Jessica
February 18, 2014 @ 12:39 am
If it’s a trap, it was of his own devising. He’s the one who came in here using a flawed definition of censorship trying to defend something patently incorrectly passed off as a First Amendment case. He ought to have figured it out before he opened his mouth and removed all doubt.
Jessica
February 18, 2014 @ 12:40 am
Of course he can’t admit any of that because it completely undermines his specious “legal censorship” argument.
Jonathon Side
February 18, 2014 @ 3:56 am
Well, yes, although I accept that they believed it was for the good of ‘freedom of speech’, or whatever.
Jonathon Side
February 18, 2014 @ 4:39 am
That puts it so much better. Uncomfortable-true, uncomfortable-false. I love it.
Pretty much the only comment I’ll make here on the current SFWA shenanigans | Epiphany 2.0
February 18, 2014 @ 12:46 pm
[…] First Amendment has nothing to do with this situation, because SFWA’s not the government. The “spirit of the First Amendment”, right. Funny how they focus on the Amendment’s spirit of free expression but not its spirit […]
Jessica
February 18, 2014 @ 1:13 pm
But that would mean that they have no clue at all with actual real freedom of speech and actual real censorship really mean and if that’s the case I despair. They’re authors who are supposed to know what words mean; they’re not just J.Random 4chan dweebs ranting on the internet simply because they can.
They chose to accept Truesdale’s thesis and they chose to sign the thing worded the way it is, not the way they think they would like it to mean. Their signature puts their reputations, their “lives, their fortunes and their sacred honour” behind the petition’s words as it stands, not as they may interpret ‘free speech’ in their heads.
But since Will took his ball and went home I’m preaching to the choir here.
Marie Dowd
February 18, 2014 @ 1:55 pm
I’m not surprised someone would speak up for the thing, there’s always someone contrarian online or in fandom. I’m also surprised these people would sign something they only selectively agree with. Nothing goes away on the net. If they are so anti-censorship, how much do they do to help other women, minorities, handicapped, etc get respect as professionals. Yes, getting readers is a meritocracy, but getting respect from your peers in a public forum should not be a matter of luck or who you know. Where are their alternate ideas to increase respectful peer behavior if they don’t want censorship?
Jessica
February 18, 2014 @ 3:02 pm
Especially when the whole ‘censorship’ argument is false to begin with. They can claim it until they’re blue in the face, but the fact remains that a private organisation editing its own private in-house publication can never practise censorship. Editing decisions are never, have never been and never will be censorship. It’s as simple as that.
For these people to take such a radical position demonstrates to the world that they haven’t got the faintest shred of a clue what censorship really means.
And then we can get into the whole subject of respectful peer behaviour, something Truesdale wants swept under the rug.
ckd
February 18, 2014 @ 5:21 pm
The ACLU appears to have a newsletter. Somehow, I suspect that they do not publish anything that anyone (even members!) might send them.
Rev. Bob
February 18, 2014 @ 5:23 pm
“For these people to take such a radical position demonstrates to the world that they haven’t got the faintest shred of a clue what censorship really means.”
Which, in turn, cheapens real censorship. I suspect that’s one of the less-discussed reasons why “we”* are objecting to “their” stance: I’m confident that (at least) the vast majority of SFWA’s membership staunchly opposes actual censorship, but that opposition is better used to fight the real thing, not this sad strawman.
If they have an issue with editorial policies, that’s fine, and I would even argue that it is the duty of those signatories who are SFWA members to make their objections heard. That doesn’t change my opinion that choosing this method and those words was an appallingly stupid way to do so. Signing on to that vile petition made me take notice, all right – but it made me question the integrity and decency of the signers, not SFWA’s policies.
* I’m not a member of SFWA; I don’t qualify. Thus, while I support the non-petition authors, I cannot and do not claim to be one of them.
Rev. Bob
February 18, 2014 @ 5:29 pm
I suppose there’s also uncomfortable-irrelevant (beside the point, whether true or false), but that falls under uncomfortable-false for these purposes; such statements have no place in the given context. As one example, the discussion of MRK’s photographs and their purported relationship to her views falls squarely into U-I territory.
Rev. Bob
February 19, 2014 @ 1:44 am
Thanks to Nick Mamatas, via N.K. Jemisin, for pointing out that one of the best responses to Dave Truesdale’s petition is this 2008 book review by one…Dave Truesdale. Upon encountering a story he finds offensive, he says (beginning with the fifth paragraph from the end):
(Boldface for emphasis and snippage for brevity are mine. Feel free to read the full review at the above link.)
So six years ago, he called for outrage over a lack of publisher oversight for content he found shocking, but now he calls for outrage over the SFWA saying that… they’re going to take better steps to oversee content that not-Dave people found shocking.
Wow. Just…wow.
Jessica
February 19, 2014 @ 3:01 am
I’m totally not surprised. The biggest hypocrites I’ve ever encountered have been straight cis men whining about their supposed loss of privilege to social advancement. Poor babies can’t bear the thought of treating their supposed inferiors like real people with real feelings and everything! Gosh, that’s just so hard!
Jonathon Side
February 19, 2014 @ 4:51 am
That is rather fantastic.
Jon Bromfield
February 19, 2014 @ 12:58 pm
Jessica and others:
Oh the oppressive hell that living in 21st America is!
Unless you’re white, male, straight, blue-eyed, tall, muscular, young, with a big IQ and a large penis, of course!
Sticking people into categories (white, male, CIS, privileged) is
ignorant, stupid, dangerous and evil.
We are all unique individuals; we all have advantages, disadvantages, hardships, lucky and bad breaks.
Have it ever occurred to you why it was so much easier to kill a “Jew,” instead of kindly Mr. Goldfarb who helped you with your math homework? How much easier it is to coldcock a person who is “white” and “privileged” instead of a fellow unique and precious human being?
You are the real haters, and you are playing with fire.
Shame on you all.
Jim C. Hines
February 19, 2014 @ 1:02 pm
“We are all unique individuals; we all have advantages, disadvantages, hardships, lucky and bad breaks.”
Nobody’s saying otherwise. But if you don’t believe being white or male or straight gives you advantages, you’re not paying attention. That doesn’t mean life is *easy* if you’re any or all of those things, mind you.
Please don’t come back until you’re willing to try to understand the conversation.
Jon Bromfield
February 19, 2014 @ 1:21 pm
[Blah, blah, it’s LAWFUL to discriminate against white men!!!1!1!, yaada, yadda, “circle jerk” … skims ahead … oh, and I’m “homely and soft-bellied.” Thank you for your contribution. The goblins found it rather lacking in calories. -Jim]
trinioler
February 19, 2014 @ 1:33 pm
If I google phrases from your post, am I going to find this is a CopyPasta? 🙂
(I am pretty damn sure I will.)
Just merely commenting on your… lack of originality and effort.
Jim C. Hines
February 19, 2014 @ 1:37 pm
Dear trolls: if you’re going to leave junk food out for the goblins, at least make it interesting junk food!
Jessica
February 19, 2014 @ 1:43 pm
Silencing tactic #28 for the lose. Come back when you can think of something original to try and shut us up with.
trinioler
February 19, 2014 @ 1:44 pm
Oddly enough, he is wrong about discriminating against white males – if they happen to be some other Protected Group(such as disabled, non-gender performative enough, non-straight, etc) or if its sexual harassment.
Jessica
February 19, 2014 @ 1:44 pm
That wasn’t original either. What’s with the poor quality trolls these days? They break after only one post.
Jessica
February 19, 2014 @ 1:47 pm
You could have saved a great many electrons by putting the period right after the word ‘wrong’.
trinioler
February 19, 2014 @ 1:47 pm
Use of copypasta leads to regurgitated lack of understanding and disruptive echolalia(not that anything is wrong with echolalia in general since I do it too).
They’ve never been challenged or pushed to provide creative and original arguments on their own.
trinioler
February 19, 2014 @ 1:49 pm
Sure, but I prefer explicitness so people know exactly the depth of wrongitude.
Jim C. Hines
February 19, 2014 @ 2:02 pm
Technically, it wasn’t until his second comment that he got fed to goblins and tossed into the moderation queue.
Jessica
February 19, 2014 @ 2:34 pm
Well yeah. It was the second post which was broken, of course. The competent (for certain values of ‘competent’) trolls from the old days could keep a thread going for days. These newfangled gimcrack flash-in-the-pan modern trolls use themselves up much too quickly.
Oh wait, I’m saying that like it’s a bad thing.
Jim C. Hines
February 19, 2014 @ 2:37 pm
He’s still trying to comment, but it’s just garbage about banning and “Badthink” and being silenced, along with a creepy reference to Carrie Underwood’s vagina.
Sally
February 19, 2014 @ 4:34 pm
That right there is a petard, ain’t it?
Sally
February 19, 2014 @ 4:53 pm
I can honestly say that this is the first time I’ve ever even thought about Carrie Underwood’s vagina (or heard the phrase). It’s not the sort of thing that crosses my mind to talk about on message boards in a discussion of a completely different topic. I’m pretty sure Ms. Underwood has one, and I hope she’s pleased with it. I’m also certain it doesn’t care about “censorship” in a trade magazine. o_O
Am also unclear about what Jim’s non-sixpack abs have to do with the topic either. Or why the troll thought this was news to Jim, who I’m pretty sure knows what his own midsection looks like.
Gosh, I’m glad the goblins have cast iron stomachs if they’re going to have to eat that kind of thing.
Jon Bromfield
February 20, 2014 @ 6:43 pm
[This is Jon’s 8th attempt at commenting after getting himself into the moderation queue. I think I’m going to let this one through as a sample of the level of discourse he’s trying to bring to the conversation, and so folks will understand why further contributions from Mr. Bromfield will continue to go directly into the goblin privy. -Jim]
Hey, Jim!
I have to admit I really didn’t know much about you when I heard about you and your blog after Correia eviscerated your pathetic commentary on his fisking of the sad girl who wrote about how bad it was to assume male/female sexes in fiction.
I had to see if you were really the liberal lickspittal you appeared to be.
You are. Gee, and much more! And less!
I did some research on you and your reputation among those in SF I admire.
Then I saw those photos and read some of your stuff….You do know you are held in mocking contempt by most of use with testicles, don’t you?
Uh…let’s just say I won’t be reading anymore here, nor ever try to post again.
Yikes, you’re an embarrassment to all that is masculine
Jessica
February 21, 2014 @ 12:58 pm
Speaking of embarrassments…
trinioler
February 21, 2014 @ 1:11 pm
Jon, if you’re an example of what Jim Hines should aim for, I’d say he should be pretty proud to be an embarassment to “all that is masculine”.
For the record Jon, this kind of “taking away someone’s Man Card” is extremely distasteful gender policing, which leads to the manipulative, harassing, bullying, and violent behavior we see so much from people like you.
Gender policing like this is what creates abusers. Gender policing like this is performed *by* abusers.
You are a nasty example of the old guard, bitter, hateful, with nary an ounce of original or critical thinking about you. All you are doing is repeating arguments you’ve been taught are effective, arguments which are laughed at, at best, ignored at worst by anyone who is willing to look beyond rote entitlement and spewing out the same abuse they’ve received in life.
Jim C. Hines
February 21, 2014 @ 1:18 pm
Given that Jon is 1) highly unlikely to listen to anything that challenges him and his Mighty Testicles of Manliness and 2) unable to reply, I don’t know that there’s any point to continuing to respond to the troll.
Rev. Bob
February 21, 2014 @ 5:03 pm
I found the “most of use [sic] with testicles” comment rather telling. In those five words, he reveals just what he thinks of women: they don’t have testes, therefore they’re inherently lesser beings. Less value, less intellect, less everything.
I wonder how he justifies his lust for them to himself. (Then again, maybe there’s a reason he’s so offensive in that respect…)
Otherwise, his post is just more “HAW HAW HAW” braying laughter and insults from the chauvinist side. Sadly, a local convention that I value for its science track tends to attract them; his hero was here just last year.
It’s kind of a shame. The more red meat those arch-conservative manly-man writers throw to what they perceive as their fan base, the more they discourage me (and others like me) from continuing to read and recommend their material. If it’s just a marketing strategy, I hope it fails and they drop it soon. I fear it’s real, though, and I regret supporting them by buying their work in the first place.
Marie Dowd
February 21, 2014 @ 5:53 pm
This one may be gone, but others like that will come again. I’m not completely convinced he isn’t a troll as showing this much acid in his daily life should be causing problem.
There is that dichotomy where someone says I can’t be biased because I have a friend who is this minority. I don’t think they see that it’s not how you treat one or two exceptions in your daily walk, but how you treat the group as a whole. Every group will have jerks, but if you treat every person badly from the start in that group, you’ve made a self-fulfilling prophecy. Treat someone with hostility, and they will be wary and suspicious even if they had no agenda going in. Karma can be subtle.
Rob
February 21, 2014 @ 6:05 pm
Part of the problem seems to be that we’re evolutionarily wired to identify characteristics from a single representative of a group, and then extrapolate to the group as a whole. Humans overall seem to have a hard time setting that aside. Then, as you said, acting on those generalizations in any specific instance just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It would be nice if more people recognized our underlying similarities, which when it comes down to it are much more substantial and profound than the surface-level differences we seem to fixate on. If people could make that shift, we’d be a lot more likely to see ourselves in others, regardless of race, gender (whether cis- or trans-), sexual orientation, and so on.
But to ultimately make that transition as a species, it will require that we do it in both directions (for any two given individuals). I think on the whole it is entirely possible for us to do this, although there are certainly always going to be bad people with respect to whom you could not do it and would not want to.
AMAZING News! Double Edition! 2/23/14 - Amazing Stories
February 23, 2014 @ 11:03 am
[…] the Covers Of Romance Novels Writer Beware Chimes In Teleread Opines More Scalzi On First Amendment Hines On PetitionGate Kerfuffle […]