Fiskception: Dissecting Correia’s Critique of MacFarlane
1/30: Comments are back on, in case there are points you feel you need to make that haven’t already been covered in the ~350 posted comments from yesterday. The goblins (and fire-spider) stayed away yesterday, but will be munching comments today as needed.
Hint: if you demean a human being’s gender or sexual preference by equating it to an attraction to animals or furniture? If you question the mental health of an individual who doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview? The goblins will eat your comment.
While we’re at it, I’ve noticed a few people responding to arguments from both me and Correia by basically saying, “Well, his books suck!” Can we not do that? Unless it’s directly relevant to the argument, it feels like a cheap shot, and doesn’t actually address what’s being discussed. So yeah, the goblins will be munching on off-topic book-bashing, too.
1/31: I don’t believe I actually have to say this, but telling someone that they, or people just like them, made Naziism what it was, will also get your comments fed to the goblins.
3/21: I’m closing comments for good. People have moved on to other arguments, and this post seems to be getting spam-bombed pretty heavily for some reason…
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This is gonna be a long one.
The backstory: Author Alex Dally MacFarlane wrote an article called Post-Binary Gender in SF: An Introduction over at Tor.com, calling for “an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.”
One week later, author Larry Correia wrote a response to MacFarlane’s piece, called Ending Binary Gender in Fiction, or How to Murder Your Writing Career. (Side note: you’ll probably want to avoid the comments on that one.)
I tried to ignore it. There’s no way I’m going to change Correia’s mind about this stuff, any more than his post changed my thinking. But of course, there are a lot of other people lurking and participating in the conversation, and while I know this is going to do bad things to my blood pressure, I think it’s a conversation worth having.
I’m following Correia’s general style here. My responses will be italicized. His original content is indented.
This was sent to me on Facebook the other day. I made some comments there, but then I got to thinking about it and decided this thing was such a good example of how modern sci-fi publishing has its head stuck up its ass that it really deserved its own blog post. My response is really directed toward the aspiring writers in the crowd who want to make a living as writers, but really it works for anybody who likes to read, or who is just tired of angsty emo bullshit.
I wonder which is more angsty … an author calling for our genre to move beyond binary gender, or another author spending 4000+ words about how people like MacFarlane are symbolic of everything that’s wrong with the genre, and are destroying fun.
Okay, aspiring author types, you will see lots of things like this, and part of you may think you need to incorporate these helpful suggestions into your work. After all, this is on Tor.com so it must be legit. Just don’t. When you write with the goal of checking off boxes, it is usually crap. This article is great advice for writers who want to win awards but never actually be read by anyone.
I agree that if you’re writing a story with the kind of checklist Correia describes, you’re probably going to get a bad story. But what exactly are the suggestions Correia objects to? MacFarlane never says all writers must now include at least one non-binary character. She says only that she wants readers to be aware of non-binary texts, and wants writers to stop defaulting to them. Not that authors should never write cismale or cisfemale characters. Just be aware that there are other choices, and make conscious choices about your writing.
Now do yourself a favor and read the comments… I’ll wait… Yeah… You know how when my Sad Puppies posts talk about the “typical WorldCon voter”? Those comments are a good snapshot of one subtype right there.
From the comments to Correia’s piece:
- “I am so tired of these pretentious twats. Err, dicks. Err… pre-op alternative genitals.”
- “The hilarious thing is my books are filled with characters who are non-white, non-male, non-straight, occasionally trans and from a mixmaster of genetic and cultural backgrounds … But I don’t write books for leftist pussies so they’ve never read my books.”
- “If this is the level of education of the typical WorldCon voter, it’s no wonder the GOOD writers don’t win awards. These loonies wouldn’t recognize good writing if Earl Harbinger yanked out their guts and used the intestines to piece out quotes from Jane Austen.”
Do we really want to start arguing about what one’s commenters say about one’s audience?
I also know from that Facebook thread that a lot of people tried to comment and disagree for various reasons, but their posts were deleted. (and some of them even swore that they were polite!). But like most modern lefty crusades, disagreement, in fact, anything less than cheerleading, is “intolerance” and won’t be tolerated. Meanwhile, my FB thread had lots of comments and an actual intelligent discussion of the pros and cons from both sides (and even transsexual communists who actually like to enjoy their fiction thought this Tor.com post was silly), so remember that the next time a snooty troll calls my fans a “right wing echo chamber.”
If Tor.com is deleting comments for disagreement, then that’s a serious problem. But skimming through the 100+ comments on the article, I find plenty that disagree with MacFarlane, or argue with what she’s saying. Tor.com does have a moderation policy, so I’d expect comments that violated that policy to get booted. Beyond that, I don’t know the details of the allegedly polite commenters who claim to have been booted for not cheerleading enough, so there’s not much more for me to say about this one.
ETA: I’m told one comment was deleted for stating that non-binary people are mentally ill, which would seem to violate #1, #2, and #4 on Tor.com’s moderation policy. There may have been other deletions, but this is the only one I’m aware of.
ETA2: One of the Tor.com moderators comments on the deletions here.
If you can’t stomach the comments long enough to hear what a typical WorldCon voter sounds like, let me paraphrase: “Fantastic! I’m so sick of people actually enjoying books that are fun! Let’s shove more message fiction down their throats! My cause comes before their enjoyment! Diversity! Gay polar bears are being murdered by greedy corporations! Only smart people who think correct thoughts like I do should read books and I won’t be happy until my genre dies a horrible death! Yay!” (and if there is beeping noise in the background, that’s because they’re backing up their mobility scooter).
So let’s break this pile of Gender Studies 101 mush down into its component bits and see just why some sci-fi writers won’t be happy until their genre dies completely. Like my usual Fisking, the original article is in italics and my comments are in bold.
Because calling for an awareness that not all people fit into a simple binary gender system = KILL ALL THE SCIENCE FICTION!!!
In other news, I believe we should do something about racism in this country, which actually means I WANT TO DESTROY AMERICA!1!!!1!
Post-Binary Gender in SF: Introduction, by Alex Dally MacFarlane
I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.
I want lots of things too, doesn’t mean I can have them. Right out the gate that’s a pretty bold statement. And by bold, I mean ridiculous.
How dare people want things! How ridiculous that people want things I don’t personally agree with! You empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction.
What is this “default of binary gender” he wants to end? It is that crazy old fashioned idea that most (as in the vast majority) of mammals, including humans, can be grouped into male and female based upon whether they’ve got XX or XY chromosomes. Sure, that’s medically true something like 99.999% of the time, which would sort of make it the default.
1. Alex MacFarlane is female.
2. You ask what the default is that she wants to end. She answers that in the following paragraph. Which doesn’t seem to stop you from running off to declare gender = chromosomal/biological sex.
Oh, and “default” means that is your assumed baseline.
So that whole thing where people are male or female except for some tiny exceptions and that is kind of the assumption until proven otherwise is standard, so this guy wants to end that. (I’m assuming Alex is a dude, but then again, that is just me displaying my cismale gendernomrative fascism)
Cismale gendernomrative fascist? Whatever. What Correia is displaying here is his awareness that he’s making an assumption, his awareness that the assumption might be wrong, and his unwillingness to do 30 seconds of research to verify his assumption. Or just read the bio at the end of MacFarlane’s article. Either because he’s lazy, or because he doesn’t see any need to treat people he disagrees with respectfully. Or both.
What do I mean by “post-binary gender”? It’s a term that has already been used to mean multiple things, so I will set out my definition:
Post-binary gender in SF is the acknowledgement that gender is more complex than the Western cultural norm of two genders (female and male): that there are more genders than two, that gender can be fluid, that gender exists in many forms.
Wait… male and female are Western Cultural Norms? Uh… No. That is a biological norm for all the higher life forms on Earth so that species can replicate themselves (keep in mind, this is SCIENCE fiction he wants to change). I like how Western Culture is the root of all that’s evil though, even though male and female are cultural norms in pretty much every human society there has ever been.
Read more carefully. The Western cultural norm is to genders; that doesn’t mean two genders is exclusively a Western cultural norm. See also, nickels are coins, but not all coins are nickels.
And yes, male and female are cultural norms in pretty much every human society EVER! Except Mesopotamia, India, Siberia, Illiniwek, Olmec, Aztec, Maya, Thailand, Lakota, Blackfoot, Indonesia, Swahili, Azande, and all of the other cultures that historically or currently acknowledge the existence of more than two genders.
Also, nitpick. Gender was a grammar term for how you referred to the different sexes. Being male or female is your Sex. Or at least, that’s what the word meant until colleges invented the Gender Studies major for those students who found Liberal Arts way too academically grueling.
Paraphrase: “Ha, ha. People who disagree with me are dumb!”
Now, before we continue I need to establish something about my personal writing philosophy. Science Fiction is SPECULATIVE FICTION. That means we can make up all sorts of crazy stuff and we can twist existing reality to do interesting new things in order to tell the story we want to tell. I’m not against having a story where there are sexes other than male and female or neuters or schmes or hirs or WTF ever or that they flip back and forth or shit… robot sex. Hell, I don’t know. Write whatever tells your story.
But the important thing there is STORY. Not the cause of the day. STORY.
Because readers buy STORIES they enjoy and when readers buy our stuff, authors GET PAID.
I … actually, I pretty much agree with him here. People read for story, not for checklists or quotas or lectures. I see nothing in MacFarlane’s article to suggest she believes any differently. Calling for authors to be more thoughtful about their craft doesn’t mean you’re telling authors to abandon story for MESSAGE.
But you know, readers also tend to enjoy stories where they can find characters like themselves. Which is easy if you’re a straight white dude, and gets progressively more difficult the further you stray from that default. Maybe if we want to write enjoyable stories, we should try looking beyond the same old default that’s been done again and again throughout the history of the genre.
Robert Heinlein had stories where technology allowed switching sex. Great. That’s actually a pretty normal sci-fi trope where in the future, there’s some tech that allows people to change shape/sex, whatever, and we’ve got grandmasters of sci-fi who have pulled off humans evolving into psychic space dolphins or beings of pure energy. If that fits into the story you want to tell and you want to explore that, awesome for you. I’ve read plenty of stories where that was part of that universe. If your space whales that live inside the sun have three sexes, awesome (that one was my novella push on Sad Puppies 1).
But this post wasn’t about, hey write whatever mind expanding sci-fi ideas you want, nope, it want to end the norm in order to push a message. Post like this are all the same. You can swap the message around, and whatever the particular norm is, or whatever the particular message is, when you put your pet-peeve message before story, odds are you are going to bore the shit out of your reader.
Yep. Putting message before story will tend to bore your reader.
Now, if the only way you can imagine including a “non-default” character in your story is to make it a Message Story, then guess what — you’re probably a shitty writer. You can have gay characters in a story without making it a Gay Story. Austistic characters without having to write an Autism Story. Black characters without having to write a Race Story.
It’s a pretty big world out there. Why are we so scared to write about more than a limited, narrow piece of it?
People who do not fit comfortably into the gender binary exist in our present, have existed in our past, and will exist in our futures. So too do people who are binary-gendered but are often ignored, such as trans* people who identify as binary-gendered.
Will exist in the future? Probably. Should they be the default for your story? No way. Ignored? Hardly. Is that denying reality?
I don’t know what he’s saying here.
Okay, so I write a book, and let’s say that it has 20 characters in it. What is the acceptable percentage of them that should be transgender? How many boxes must I check in order to salve a blogger’s liberal angst? Let’s see… Only like 1 in 50,000 people have sex changes performed. So at 20 characters a book… If I have one character who has had a sex change show up every 2,500 books I write, I’d be statistically accurate.
Oh, yay. We’re back to quotas and checklists.
Ignoring the uncited and inaccurate statistics here, let’s flip this around. How many musclebound manly white men do I have to write about in my stories in order to convince people like Correia that it’s not a secret subversive left-wing liberal Message? How many big-busted blonde women need to throw themselves on my hero’s penis to satisfy his insecurities that non-white, non-male people might start to have an actual voice?
Oh, but now you’re going to tell me that gay people make up anywhere from 1-4% of the population. Fantastic. Except gay people are still the same sex they were born with. Gay dudes are still men and gay chicks are still women. This blogger didn’t say he wanted an end to default sexual orientation, he wants an end to default binary sex. If you think sci-fi doesn’t have people who don’t swing both ways, you’ve not read much sci-fi.
Right, so you’re throwing bad statistics out about a made-up argument that you acknowledge MacFarlane didn’t even bring up.
I think you’re wrong, because kitties are cuter than puppies. Which has nothing to do with anything Correia actually said, but that seems to be how we’re playing the game now.
Now, if I’m writing a sci-fi story set in Space Berkley or the Tenderloin District of the Future, then I’d probably have plenty of Hirs and Shmisters or whatever. Whatever fits the story, but until then how about not trying to enforce Equal Opportunity against our imaginary people?
(and if you really want to get crazy in the speculative fiction department, what with all this BS with made up pronouns to get rid of Him and Her, what the hell are romance languages supposed to do? Latino. Latina. Latinu? Latinsexyrobot?)
Language should be static and never evolve, which is why all future blog posts will be written in ancient Sumerian.
Here’s the problem. From a nuts and bolts story telling perspective, your readers are going to assume that everything in your book is similar to the world they currently live in, until demonstrated otherwise.
In talking to readers, I find that most of them assume SF/F books will portray worlds dominated by straight white folks. Not exclusively, mind you, but the representation in our genre is most certainly not that close to the world we currently live in.
Unless you say that in the future everybody has been genetically modified to have 3 legs, they are going to assume that all your human characters have two legs. If you are going to demonstrate that something is different, then there needs to be a reason for it. So if you say all humans have 3 legs, but it doesn’t play into the story at all, then why bother? And every time you change something to be different from the expected, there had better be a reason for it or you will quickly just annoy your reader.
I agree. When you make a choice about character, you should have a reason for that choice.
Making a character male or female is a choice. Making a character white is a choice. Making a character straight is a choice. But it’s a choice often made because these are the default, and the writer is lazy.
Reading sci-fi like that grows tiresome. It is like listening to an inexperienced little kid saying “Look, I can do THIS! And now I can do THIS! Isn’t that the neatest thing EVAR!?” And your response is “Yeah, yeah, that’s special…” when you’re really bored as shit and don’t care how tall their Lego tower is the 50th time.
I’m not sure what sci-fi he’s referring to, and I’m a little skeptical about how much of it he’s actually read, given his arguments. But I find stories that explore a more diverse world, that present different characters and stories I haven’t read a thousand times before, to be much more interesting. There’s comfort and enjoyment in reading the same-old genre tropes and tales too, but Correia sounds a lot like he’s bashing a genre you’ve never read.
Also, screw you. My LEGO tower is AWESOME.
If your story is about exploring sexual identity, awesome. Write that story. But only a fool is going to come along and tell you that you need to end the default of all your characters having ten fingers, because there are people in the world born with twelve and how could you be so insensitive to those who have lost fingers? Because awareness.
So if humans having 5 or 6 sexes in the future is part of your story, write it. If it isn’t part of the story, why would you waste words on it? Oh, that’s right, because MESSAGE.
ProTip: Focusing on message rather than story is a wonderful way for writers to continue working at Starbucks for the rest of their lives.
ProTip 2: If the only reason you can think of to include characters who aren’t the default is because MESSAGE, you’re a shitty writer. You might be a popular writer, because there are certainly plenty of people who want to devour books that don’t challenge them in any way, but that doesn’t make you a good writer. That’s probably an argument best saved for another blog post, though.
I am not interested in discussions about the existence of these gender identities: we might as well discuss the existence of women or men. Gender complexity exists. SF that presents a rigid, unquestioned gender binary is false and absurd.
Yes. Topic of the Day X exists! You know what else exists? Child abuse. So I’d better make sure I put that in every book I write.
It’s so much easier to argue with people if I deliberately misinterpret and oversimplify what they’re saying, isn’t it?
Because readers love that. If I’m telling a story about rocket ships, readers love it when your characters pause to have a discussion about animal cruelty, pollution, the dangers of over prescribing psychotropic drugs, or how we need to be sensitive to people with peanut allergies too. Readers are totally into being preached at about author’s favorite causes.
Have you ever gone into Barnes and Noble, went to the clerk at the info desk, and said “Hey, I really want to purchase with my money a science fiction novel which will increase my AWARENESS of troubling social issues.”? No? This is my shocked face.
Not that you can’t get a cause into your story, as long as you do it with skill. But the minute you destroy the default just to destroy the default, congratulations, you just annoyed the shit out of the reader. You want to slip in a message and not annoy your customers, that takes skill, so until you have developed your skills, don’t beat people over the head with your personal hang ups.
How about if my story isn’t in any way, shape, or form concerned with sexual identity (or whatever some reviewer’s personal hang up is today) I don’t waste words writing about it, and readers who want to can just assume that those people exist in the universe but they don’t happen to have speaking parts in this particular novel, if they care enough to think about it at all, which they probably won’t.
“Those People exist in my stories. They’re just not important enough to have speaking parts in this book. Or those other books. Or the majority of the books in our field.”
I intend to use this column to examine post-binary SF texts, both positively and critically, as well as for discussions of points surrounding this subject.
And I intend to use this column to go beyond Ursula K Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness.
Read that a long time ago among the thousands of books I read as a kid. Vaguely remember it. Thought it was good, if I recall correctly.
I liked it, though I have to admit I find LeGuin’s nonfiction even better than her fiction.
Kameron Hurley wrote several years ago about the frustration of The Left Hand of Darkness being the go-to book for mind-blowing gender in SF, despite being written in 1968. Nothing written in the decades since has got the same traction in mainstream SF discourse—
Maybe that’s because Le Guin told a story that happened to have this blogger’s pet topic in it, that was still a story readers found interesting, as opposed to crafting a message fic manifesto, that readers found boring and forgettable?
I think the argument here is that LeGuin is the only one in the past 45 years who’s written about non-binary gender without writing a MESSAGE story. Which is a ridiculous argument, unless you buy into the tautological silliness that any story about non-binary gender = MESSAGE story.
and texts have been written. For a bit of context, 1968 is almost twenty years before I was born, and I’m hardly a child.
HARDLY! Well, there you go. I know when I’m looking for professional advice about how to succeed as a professional writer, I’m going to listen to somebody in their mid-twenties.
Hey, you’d better listen up. I’m betting this blogger went to COLLEGE!
“MacFarlane is wrong because I’m older than her!”
One of the reasons Hurley considers for this situation (raised by someone on a mailing list she belonged to) is that:
“…perhaps Le Guin’s book was so popular because it wasn’t actually as radical as we might think. It was very safe. The hetero male protagonist doesn’t have sex with any of the planet’s inhabitants, no matter their current gender. We go off on a boys’ own adventure story, on a planet entirely populated by people referred to as ‘he,’ no matter their gender. Le Guin is a natural storyteller, and she concentrates on the story. It’s not overly didactic. It’s engaging and entertaining.”
Holy shit… Wait… You mean this story has stuck around because “she concentrates on the story”? Engaging and entertaining? Blasphemy!
Yet, people like this don’t get why message fic books win piles of awards, yet totally fail in the market. See, the problem the modern literati twaddle peddlers run into isn’t that readers are insensitive rubes who don’t understand the plight of whatever their liberal cause of the day is, it is because they want to enjoy what they read. Their entertainment time and money is limited. Why spend it being preached at?
Once again misrepresenting the argument or just missing the point.
The next few paragraphs are very interesting, because they give you a glimpse into the mind of the modern literati.
Alex Dally MacFarlane IS the Modern Literati! She should totally get that on a T-shirt, or turn it into a superhero costume.
The Left Hand of Darkness certainly has been radical, as Hurley says, in its time, in the subsequent years and in the present. I have spoken to several people who found The Left Hand of Darkness immensely important: it provided their first glimpse of the possibility of non-binary gender. The impact that it has had on people’s realisations about their own gender is not something I want to diminish, nor anyone else’s growth in understanding.
However, I do think it can be very palatable for people who haven’t done a lot of thinking about gender. It is, as Hurley says earlier in her post, the kind of story that eases the reader in gently before dropping the gender bombs, and those bombs are not discomfiting for all readers. Of course they’re not. How can one text be expected to radicalise every reader?
I don’t want to cast The Left Hand of Darkness aside. It’s an important part of this conversation. What I do want to do is demonstrate how big that conversation truly is. Other texts have been published besides The Left Hand of Darkness, many of them oft-overlooked—many of them out of print. Some of them are profoundly problematic, but still provide interesting questions. Some of them are incredible and deserve to be considered classics of the genre. Some of them are being published right now, in 2014.
Fascinating. To the literati, books are all about dropping truth bombs. (as long as the truth agrees with their predetermined notions, obviously) This one is about sex, but you could swap that out for the evils of capitalism, or whatever bullshit they’re hung up on today. And of course, since publishing is an insular little industry based in the Manhattan echo chamber of proper goodthink, all the message fic that gets pumped out is stuff that just annoys the regular reading public.
More straw-manning. Yay. But yes, there are in fact people who think that maybe — just maybe — we should have stories that are more than mindless fluff perpetuating the same tired stereotypes. There are also people who recognize that all stories carry certain assumptions and messages and “truths.” Good Triumphs Over Evil. Freedom Is the Bestest Thing in the Universe. Intellectual Arrogance Will Destroy You. If Correia thinks his own personal bullshit doesn’t shape the stories he writes, then he’s a fool.
Also, damn. Bitter, much?
You want a truth bomb? Readers hate being preached at. Period. Even when you agree with the message, if it is ham fisted and shoved in your face, it turns you off. Message fic for message fic’s sake makes for tedious reading. Yet, as this stuff has become more and more prevalent, sci-fi has become increasingly dull, and readership has shrank.
Of course, the literati won’t be happy until everything is boring ass message fic and nobody reads sci-fi anymore, because then they’ll be super special snowflakes.
You know what’s boring? Yet another book about manly straight white dudes doing manly straight white things. You can’t preach about how boring conformity is bad for the genre, then spend 4000 words arguing with someone trying to challenge a piece of that genre conformity.
Okay, obviously you can do that, but I think it’s rather silly.
Amal El-Mohtar wrote a piece about the process of finding—having to find—a pioneering woman writer, Naomi Mitchison, and followed it up with a post where she said:
“It breaks my heart that we are always rediscovering great women, excavating them from the relentless soil of homogenizing histories, seeing them forever as exceptions to a rule of sediment and placing them in museums, remarkable more for their gender than for their work.”
Ah, pseudo-intellectual university humanities department speak… How I have missed you.
Writing should be simple and basic. “Invisible prose.” Because Conformity. Or something.
Yes. Because you shouldn’t elevate a book because you thought it was good and you want to share it with others, you should elevate a book because the sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, or personal philosophy of the author checks a box on the liberal angst/white guilt checklist.
The typical WorldCon voter, when presented with 5 nominees for a category, and their clique’s personal favorite writer isn’t on there, and not having actually read any of the works, will go through the authors and rank them according to the order that best assuages their hang ups. Oooh, a paraplegic transsexual lesbian minority abortion doctor with AIDS who writes for Mother Jones? You’d need a wheelbarrow to carry all the Hugos.
[Citation needed]
Quality? Popularity? Staying power? Influence? Isn’t that what makes something a classic? Not to the modern literati. We have to elevate works by people according to what they checked on their EEOC form. Meanwhile, hatey-McHatertons like me read books and like them, even when we don’t know anything about the author. I didn’t know what sex Lois Bujold or Wen Spencer where the first time I read one of their books, but I knew the writing was good. I couldn’t tell you what writers are gay or like to cross dress either, but I can tell you who I enjoy reading.
You realize that’s what El-Mohtar is saying, right? That we need to stop recognizing women writers as curiosities, noteworthy because, “Hey look, a woman wrote something good!” That we need to move past the assumption that all of the great works of literature were written by men. That we need to stop ignoring women’s accomplishments just because they’re women.
And of course, I know you would never poo-poo a book because it has girl cooties, but historically, that’s certainly been the trend. I’m glad to know you’re on board with wanting to do away with that trend.
It seems to me that there’s a similar process for post-binary texts: they exist, but each reader must discover them anew amid a narrative that says they are unusual, they are rare, they sit outside the standard set of stories. This, at least, has been my experience. I want to dismantle the sediment—to not only talk about post-binary texts and bring them to attention of more readers, but to do away with the default narrative.
Because nothing is going to make an author successful like copying things that were unpopular before.
MacFarlane: “I want to talk about these books and stories that don’t get a lot of attention, and expand the kind of stories we read and create.”
Correia: “Copying unpopular stuff will make you unsuccessful!”
Hines: “Huh???”
That process of (re)discovery is probably inescapable. A bookshop, a library or a friend’s/family member’s bookshelves can’t contain every book ever published, so new readers will always have to actively seek out stories beyond the first ones they encounter. What if, El-Mohtar wonders, the first books often included Naomi Mitchison? What if the first books often included multiple post-binary texts as well?
Wait… So the purpose of reading is to get people to accept non-binary gender? Well, huh… All this time I’ve been under the impression people primarily read for enjoyment. So that’s what I’ve been doing wrong!
Bored now. I hope Correia moves on to something new and interesting soon. The same old misreading and straw-manning is getting dull.
The English professor says: “For young people and new readers, wouldn’t it be nice if we shoved IMPORTANT WORKS about Special Topic X down their throats rather than something they might enjoy? Now I wonder why most Americans don’t read for fun anymore after we beat them over the head through their entire education and forced them to read tedious classics until reading was seen as a chore… Odd.”
And for the small and dwindling percentage of us that still actually like to buy and read books, what I’m getting from this blogger is that they’re thinking “Let’s get this mind blowing stuff out there. Yeah, that’ll rock their little bourgeois world!” Okay, dude… They’re SCIENCE FICTION readers. You’re probably not going to stun them with your big shocking ideas. You really want to shock a sci-fi reader with your book nowadays? Actually entertain them.
As an interesting side note, the Guardian just did a report that revealed how much published authors really make. For most of us, it isn’t that much. I think the average was like 30k. The majority of published writers still have their day jobs. Only the top 1% made six figures.
I am the 1%.
So aspiring authors, if you want to actually make a living doing this, you can either listen to me and put story first, or you can listen to the grad student and focus on the pet message of the day.
Regular readers will know that I always say writers should have GET PAID in their mission statement, the reason I do that is because most of us DON’T.
Correia makes more money than you. Therefore he’s right.
I’ll certainly grant that Larry Correia is a successful writer. Therefore you should do what he does.
So is Ursula LeGuin. Who wrote an amazing novel about non-binary gender that’s still popular today. Therefore you should do what she does.
Look, NOBODY IS SAYING THAT STORY ISN’T IMPORTANT, or that you shouldn’t put story first. What they’re saying is that there are more stories out there, and more characters, and more possibilities to explore.
Conversations about gender in SF have been taking place for a long time. I want to join in.
Judging by how they’ve been “grooming” the comments there, when they say conversations they mean shut up and listen while they lecture you about something.
[Citation needed]
I want more readers to be aware of texts old and new, and seek them out, and talk about them. I want more writers to stop defaulting to binary gender in their SF—I want to never again read entire anthologies of SF stories or large-cast novels where every character is binary-gendered. I want this conversation to be louder.
Read that paragraph again and think about it… Think about it really hard. Nuts and bolts. Every single SF book, he wants to default to something other than what your audience thinks is normal. I want more people to seek out not just great books, or mind bending books, but books. Period.
Yep. How dare she wish for books to more accurately reflect the diversity of the real world…
Speaking of great sci-fi, wouldn’t Firefly have been so much better if Captain Mal had been a pre-op transsexual? And just think of the hilarious banter they could have about Jayne not being a girl’s name… never mind, because in the future that is insensitive.
Of course, good writers will just write their characters so that they’re interesting and compelling, rather than to check a box to make a special interest group happy. If I’m writing a story and it would make the story better to have some character be something other than the default, then I can put that in. If it doesn’t have a point, then it is a distraction to the reader.
Characters who are not straight or white or cisgendered male or whatever Larry Correia thinks of as the default have a reason to be included in the story. (Fortunately, white dudes like me don’t need a reason to exist. We’re the normal ones, you see. We’re supposed to be here.)
Here’s a reason: because people other than your narrow-minded “default” exist in the world. Because if you want to write a story that’s in any way reflective of the real world, you have to acknowledge that fact.
Except even then, a Hatey McHaterton like me will still probably do it wrong. There was a bad guy in Swords of Exodus named Diego. This guy was an enforcer for an international crime syndicate. He participated in underground knife fighting arenas against Yakuza and Russian Mafia members for fun. Diego could match Lorenzo in a fight. He was also a gay cross dresser who made a very convincing Celine Dion, so obviously, I got a review that talked about how I hate gay people… Even though in a book where almost all of the characters, including the protagonists, are some degree of bad guy, obviously this character is a demonstration of my homophobic hatey hate mongering.
Then there’s Big Eddie, but really, you can’t think of Eddie that way. His sexual orientation was Hurt People. If you were to give him a psych evaluation to see what his “gender identity” was, he’d check all the boxes, then burn the test and stab the psychologist.
As far as a character’s proclivities, for all you know my books are filled with pre-op transsexuals, only I’m not going to stop and talk about them and what they do off screen. In fact, the only time I talk about a character’s feelings on any topic in a book are when that helps flesh out that character in a manner that helps tell the story I want to tell.
“See, I wrote about a gay cross dresser, so you can’t accuse me of being homophobic!”
To that end, I’ll be running this column: posting every two weeks, with discussions of books and short stories, as well as interviews and roundtables with other writers and readers of post-binary SF,
Oh good. Because this topic really needs to be beaten home. I hear that there are actually some consumers out there who still actually read sci-fi, and we will never rest until this genre becomes so incredibly boring that we drive everyone away!
because I strongly believe it’s important to hear multiple voices.
Just not the ones that disagree in the blog comments.
Again, try reading the comments. Also, you seem to be accusing MacFarlane of deleting comments, when I suspect it’s the Tor.com staff who are responsible for moderating. I’m not 100% sure on that, but I suspect you’ve got your snark crossed here.
I’m particularly interested in science fiction at the moment, but I expect I’ll cross genres as I run the column.
Yeah. I can’t wait until he gets to urban fantasy. Yay.
I hope you’ll join me in making the default increasingly unstable.
Wow. Yeah. I’ll show you, Dad! You can’t tell me what do! Down with your cismale gendernormative fascism!
And back to the mockery and criticizing the author’s age rather than her ideas.
#
Well that was fun. My congratulations to anyone who read this far.
A reminder: I do moderate comments here, because I’m a freedom-hating commie I don’t have time or interest in trolls, name-calling, threats, etc. You’re welcome to comment, but as Wil Wheaton says, don’t be a dick.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 1:57 pm
Seriously? What SF were you reading? You don’t think Saint Heinlein was perhaps espousing some opinions there?
Also, my degrees are in a relevant field here. I’m pointing this out because you appear to be confused on both biology and social science. So, in fact people’s sex isn’t always obvious. What’s an XY person with androgen insensitivity? Also, you do know there are species where sex isn’t fixed, right?
Additionally words do this funny thing we call changing meaning. That means that gender has more than one meaning now. There is social gender (what’s in your brain) and there is grammatical gender (how words (not just nouns) work).
You don’t sound smart by talking like this, you sound ignorant.
Abe
January 29, 2014 @ 1:58 pm
Ok, I will admit that one. I missed that part of his statement. That could just be him trying to be inflammatory, setting critics up for an easy attack. No idea… He could also have just not bothered and been busy critiquing the message and not caring who really wrote it (unless they themselves bring it up as part of the argument).
mikes75
January 29, 2014 @ 1:58 pm
“Oh, where to start. First, yes, there are people out there that list their “gender/sex” however the heck you want to say it as other than male/female. Whoopdeedoo. Basic biology is… for evolved life forms on planet earth, there is male and female. There is not computersexual, there is not barcoloungersexual, there is not magazinesexual. There are just two.”
And while we’re at it, how ’bout white people are just white and black people just black? none of your silly “Irish,” or “African,” or “French,” or “Cuban.” WHITE or BLACK. every thing else just gets all confusing and hard…
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 1:58 pm
Are we complaining that Larry is not using binary gender?
Ryan
January 29, 2014 @ 1:58 pm
I think Jim was asking where do you see the near mandate in the original article.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 1:59 pm
In which I cannot comment further because I a ded of amused.
Also, you’re now advocating polygamy as well… message writer.
Thomas M. Wagner
January 29, 2014 @ 2:01 pm
One stupendously silly point that Correia keeps hammering home, as if no one else had thought of it, is that at the end of the day, people just want to be entertained, and anything that attempts to impart a message or a theme gets in the way of the roller coaster ride. It’s the kind of lazy thinking that you hear just about anyone engage in when they feel compelled to defend enjoying what they enjoy. “Look, don’t give me a hard time for liking Adam Sandler movies, all I want is to be ENTERTAINED!”
Thing is, everyone reads fiction for entertainment, even those pinky-in-the-air liberal intellectual types. Perhaps it’s just that some people have a broader definition of what constitutes entertainment. For some people, entertainment needs are satisfied by reaching for the lowest hanging fruit. Some people are entertained when they are inspired to think, and consider new ideas. And for some people, all those things fall under their umbrella of entertainment.
The main problem with Correia’s rant is that he’s adopted zero-sum thinking. In order for you to have your Inclusive, Progressive, Big Idea Fiction, I can no longer have my Entertainment, and how dare you! The very idea that people who come from different walks of life would like to see their experiences and identity better represented in SF is something that seems to strike him as actually threatening, despite his repeated boats about his strong sales. I don’t really get it, but I do know it says far more about him than about MacFarlane, let alone the diversity of ideas SF is capable of exploring.
Jonathan
January 29, 2014 @ 2:01 pm
Eve,
This is exactly what a totalitarian would say. You support the right of people to have their opinion, as long as they agree with you.
Jim,
She is suggesting punitive measures against any writer she dislikes. Isn’t that abundantly clear?
Abe
January 29, 2014 @ 2:02 pm
Saying she wrote a message story is like saying John Varley wrote a message story with his Steel Beach and Gaea series. What they both did was incorporate sexual identity and gender issues within a greater plot, so that the issue could be explored but didn’t overwhelm the story itself.
Which seems to be what Correia is suggesting authors do… work it into a story without getting preachy about it.
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:04 pm
See, you missed the point, Jim. Which is surely pardonable because I hid it or, at least, didn’t show it. Why would a “cross-dressing” tank be any of those things? (It’s not actually cross dressing, but in growing its brain, said brain came out different.) Could it be that it feels alone because the other tanks, all cis-male and -female, don’t like it? Because it doesn’t fit their easy and comfortable frames of reference? That’s the more or less PC side of it. But what if that can’t be overcome? What if combat requires social cohesion (which it does) which does not permit much individuality (which it doesn’t)?
I am, by the way, in the process of writing – rather, re-writing – that story. I am not sure about adding in the transexual tank.
Rico
January 29, 2014 @ 2:07 pm
Jim, I posted a comment to the article linking to Larry’s rebuttal stating that I felt it was a good rebuttal
I used neutral language and no charged words. That was quickly deleted. I then left a comment asking why all comments not filled with overwhelming praise were being deleted. While I am not aware of Tor’s comment policy I saw other reasonable comments being deleted, though I do no recall their approximate text.
Also there is at least one publisher that is actively seeking to put message over story. So I would say you are incorrect on that account. If I check this page later I would be happy to link their page upon request.
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 2:08 pm
Not all readers, just a significant section. If I want to be preached at, I’ll to to church. (good luck with that). What you are obviously not getting and do not WANT to get is that when a story becomes preachy, when it’s all about the author’s pet peccadillo’s, then only extremely RARELY is it good. The story becomes about the message, rather than the story. Example i used elsewhere…Ellen. Her sitcom was good, funny. I enjoyed it. then she came out on the show. Again, not enough to turn me off her comedy. EXCEPT, the show them became about Lesbian Ellen instead of comedian Ellen. She quit being funny to preach. It became about a message instead of an entertainment. Would I have stopped watching because she “came out as a lesbian”…no. Would I stop watching a comedy that wasn’t funny because it was about being lesbian? You betcha. Your assumption that only those that disagree will be turned off is a fallacy. While she may not have said she didn’t want good scifi anymore, practical reality is very few writers have the skills and balls/tits to pull it off successfully.
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 2:09 pm
Irish, African, French, Cuban… all of them are male or female. And entirely missing the point, but that seems to be a theme with the Jim fans here.
Marc Cabot
January 29, 2014 @ 2:10 pm
I’m 43, and I want the both of you off my lawn RIGHT SCREAMING NOW. And take that Alex person with you. Hooligans!
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:10 pm
Wow, I wonder how much “paraphrasing” and “obvious satire” I would get away with in my comments before being dismissed as a troll and banned?
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 2:11 pm
Dammit, Demetrias, don’t you start using logic. You know that isn’t allowed. Larry does in fact acknowledge that he has lost readers due to his pro gun stance in other arenas. Just proves his point more.
Marc Cabot
January 29, 2014 @ 2:11 pm
Actually I enjoy the work of several authors whose messages I’m iffy on (or downright disgree with.) More than one of them are Too Big To Edit and so their works (especially their later works) have multi-page screeds at fairly regular intervals. I’ve just learned to go into trance-reader mode, skim over it, and zone back in when the plot resumes. It’s not hard to do.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:12 pm
groupthink always gets a pass
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 2:12 pm
Exactly, Abe. At no point does Larry say to not have a message. Just to not let it overwhelm your story. Everything in service to the story. Stay on point. Jim has what, a masters? PHD in english. I’d think he of all people would know that.
MojoRonin
January 29, 2014 @ 2:13 pm
Ryan: Alex’s article, sentence one: “I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.”
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 2:15 pm
Why can you only fantasize about people exactly like you? Little girls are expected to empathize and want to be like men. POC are expected to empathize with white protagonists. Why doesn’t this go both ways?
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:16 pm
Probably something to do with “ending the default”
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:17 pm
Why not? When left wing columnist Dietmar Dath managed to drive Watch on the Rhine to number two for English books in Germany, just behind the then latest Harry Potter (yes, Thomas W, as a matter of fact, it was), I sent a message through Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung that next time I was in Germany, the bier was on me.
Muccamukk
January 29, 2014 @ 2:18 pm
I’m not feeling like arguing with neckbeards from facebook is the best use of your time, Jim. But I guess that the nights are long and the days are cold, and it must have been at least somewhat satisfying to write.
I do appreciate that someone is taking all this on, even if it doesn’t go anywhere.
[citation needed indeed]
I’m sure someone has done stats about diversity in Hugo winners, but universally about PoC/people with disabilities/genderqueer people/queers generally is not the impression I have.
Marc Cabot
January 29, 2014 @ 2:18 pm
The applicant may serve as his or her own lexicographer, but bears the risk that a nonstandard use of a word may narrow or broaden the scope of the disclosure, or the claims pertaining thereto.
YL
January 29, 2014 @ 2:19 pm
“He has characters of different races, species, genders”
Yes, and the impression I got from Hines and MacFarlane is that’s what they’re arguing for, except with the inclusion of non-binary characters. So instead of characters that only default to cis, non-binary characters should also fit into that. So, like instead of only white, cis, straight men going around doing important stuff, different races, binary genders, and sexual orientations should be going around doing important stuff.
“If a character’s identity/preferences are not an plot issue, why should it be brought up? Why bring up anything that doesn’t help entertain the reader and move the plot along? Do you have to describe every physical part of a character’s body (including sexual organs) and how they choose to use them when you write?”
Why would bringing up that a character was born a man but decided to have surgery to change herself to what she feels herself to be suddenly throw you out of the story anyway? It’d just be part of the character. Hines is arguing for characters that aren’t just two dimensional caricatures of a message.
As for why it should be brought up at all? Because representation does matter (I mean there’s studies showing that watching TV decreases the self esteem of all kids unless they’re white boys. That’s pretty messed up but unsurprising when you see statistics of the percentages of genders and races in prominent roles in TV). I don’t mean you have to fulfill some sort of diversity quota, I just mean books should reflect that people aren’t all straight, white, cisgendered males. And unfortunately that’s what the majority of sci-fi/fantasy defaults to.
By the way, when I pick up a book that doesn’t explicitly say what the character looks like, I automatically put them as white because that’s what the majority of books I read have as main characters. I’m asian. I don’t even identify characters as my own race as a default and I’m not the only one.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:22 pm
BTW, the smug hit on my intelligence is hardly worthy of reasoned debate and would probably get me banned if I tried it.
dave
January 29, 2014 @ 2:23 pm
OK! Let’s get this straight. Some chick wrote something, Larry Correia fisked it, Jim Hines fisked the fisk, Now everyone is all up in each others face. This is great! My two cents? As if any one cared. I’ve never read anything from the original chick. I’m calling her the chick because i can’t remember her name. She seemed to think that every story should have someone who was GLBT, or LGBT. You see it written both ways, which I don’t understand either, if you are GAY, there is no such thing as “ladies first”, and if you are “inclusive” there should be an S for straight. Maybe I think about things to much and that’s why i couldn’t understand what she was talking about.
Larry! You don’t have to jump down every rabbit hole, no matter how plump and juicy the rabbit is. I have read every book by Correia. Because they are funny and entertaining. I remember complaining about the price increase on paperbacks when I bought my first copy of the Hobbit, it had gone up to .75 cents. I can’t afford to buy a book because it might be good. So I tend to stick with stuff where I’m not going to waste ten bucks.
Jim! Never read your stuff. Actually, sorry, never heard of you. But the cover art looks good. So i might give it a try. I like the Bikini Armour Battle Babe theme. And any body who takes on Correia in a fisking duel has balls. even if you are a girl.
Guys, play nice! Go buy a Sam Adams sample pack then argue about which one tastes best.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:24 pm
No. The complaint is that he’s misgendering the author.
MojoRonin
January 29, 2014 @ 2:24 pm
I’m gonna throw out a selfthink opinion and observation. When Alex said: “I want an end…”, that is just about as much of a demand as you can get, therefore: near-mandate. Had Alex said: “Perhaps we can expand our writing beyond the default of binary gender in science fiction stories” then she would be expressing an opinion, and capturing the attention of people that would be open to a discussion.
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 2:25 pm
I am using it to mean the base setting. Almost every computer sold in the US defaults to english. Almost every one in France defaults to french. You can change the options and there are probably stores that sell spanish language computers in the barrio but generally when you find a computer in the US and turn it on its in English. Why shouldn’t you be able to pick up any book and expect the characters to be cis-whatever? That is what most people want. They want to pick up any given story and Cinderella be Cinderella. Its cool every now and then for it to not be Cinderella and instead by Charming pretending to be Cinderella. Like Monsterous Regiment. But to do away with the default requires it to be more then an every now and then thing. Most readers don’t want that. Heck I bet most tran sexuals don’t want that. I mean if you do self identify as female, why would you mind the heroine being a woman? Transexuals don’t self identify as other than the two sexes/genders. They just identify with one different from their biology.
Laura Resnick
January 29, 2014 @ 2:28 pm
Okay, this whole thing is a bit clearer to me now. I was perplexed before.
I read the Tor.com essay yesterday and wasn’t sure what it was about. Post-binary gender portrayals in sf/f was obviously the subject, but it was unclear to me what argument the author was trying to make or what the intention of the essay was.
Then I followed a link to Larry Correia’s blog, supposedly a rebuttal of the piece, and it read as: “Liberals are destroying sf/f! And fiction! And the world! And the internet! And fun! I HATE liberals! Liberals–blegggh!!”
Which made my bemusement complete.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:28 pm
BTTW, this is the actual meaning of the word paraphrase
“A restatement of a text in another form or other words, often to simplify or clarify meaning.
“When you paraphrase,” says Brenda Spatt, “you retain everything about the original writing but the words.” (See Examples and Observations, below.)
”
I would challenge your use of the word.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:29 pm
Rico,
I’d be curious about the publisher in question, thanks!
I find it troubling that Tor.com would be deleting that kind of comment. I’ve left a comment over there asking about it. We’ll see if they respond.
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:30 pm
Trailer trash elves! What writer doesn’t wish s/h/it had been the one to come up with trailer trash elves. Better still, the elves are about perfectly in line with Tolkien, who described them as decaying…they’ve just continued to decay, all the way to the trailer court.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:31 pm
People who are neither male nor female: “Hey, we exist!”
Commenters: “No you don’t, because we said so! You might think you exist, but you’re wrong!”
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:32 pm
It’s not clear to me. I can’t tell if she’s being sarcastic or serious. If serious, then I disagree. If sarcasm, then I’m missing the point of the snark on this one.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:34 pm
“Ending the default” does not mean that all stories must have non-binary gender characters. It means that this should not be the automatic, unquestioned norm.
I want an all-expenses paid trip to Hawaii. That’s hardly a mandate that the world provide me with such a trip…
dave
January 29, 2014 @ 2:34 pm
I liked the gnomes
Ryan
January 29, 2014 @ 2:34 pm
The way I read it, the word “default” takes “mandate” entirely out of the equation.
Stareyes
January 29, 2014 @ 2:35 pm
I don’t want expectations about the main character. I want to be pleasantly surprised to meet a different person every time I try a new series. They could be male, or female, or some other category; they could be gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, or having a new way of identifying themselves that I have to pick up as I go*. If I always wanted Cinderella, I’d just rewatch old favorites and stick to series I know rather than reading new things.
* Yay worldbuilding!
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:36 pm
There was no smug hit intended, but you’re welcome to read into whatever you like.
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 2:39 pm
? No one wants little girls to be like men except for feminist. I certainly didn’t say that. I said I want the heroine to be the heroine and the hero to be the hero in most stories. And POC are not expected to empathize with White people either. Orson Scott Card wrote a book with an entire black cast just to add some Black Male Hero’s for young black men to look up to into Scifi/Fantasy literature. You don’t think POC write books featuring all POC characters? And I didn’t say they can’t write lgtb books or that I wouldn’t read them. I said their is no reason to destroy the default position. There already exist tonnes of books with transexual characters and identity issue explorations. You want to write some more? Go ahead. But don’t be advocating for the destruction of the default. That is not what the majority want. You do that and your going to destroy the genre.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:41 pm
“Jim! Never read your stuff. Actually, sorry, never heard of you. But the cover art looks good.”
Dammit, when I became a writer, I was promised fame and fortune. FAME AND FORTUNE! Somebody lied to me…
But thanks! If you give them a try, I hope you enjoy ’em! Even if I don’t have any gangsta gnomes. (I’ve got goblin zombies at one point, and sparkling vampires who are promptly killed by a librarian with a ray gun. Does that count?)
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:41 pm
And I understand you misspelled her name, is there an equal angst?
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:42 pm
The Thought Police at Tor seem to have gotten worse.
Ken Marable
January 29, 2014 @ 2:42 pm
Sorry, sir. I didn’t mean to cause trouble. My friends and I will go play make believe somewhere else, sir. 😉
YL
January 29, 2014 @ 2:42 pm
Maybe I took that a different way.
Like, for example if the sentence had read, “I want an end to the default of white characters in science fiction stories.”
I wouldn’t think she meant that everyone should always write about non-white characters focusing on racial issues, I would think she meant that hey non white characters exist, maybe we should include them, not as a ‘message’ but as part of the landscape of the story.
Non-binary gender people (and animals, there’s non-binary animals out there existing in nature right now) exist, so why shouldn’t they in stories? It doesn’t have to be a message about their non-binary gender, it should just be a part of some characters.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:42 pm
Depends on the reader. It turns out that not everyone appreciates nose-picking injuries in the very first chapter of a book. Weird…
Rico
January 29, 2014 @ 2:43 pm
Crossed genres http://crossedgenres.com/submissions/novel/
It appears to be a smaller magazine. They say very specifically what they are looking, what they are not looking for, and what they will not accept. Now it is their company to brand how they want, however I do not feel it to be disingenuous to say they are putting a certain message over story.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 2:43 pm
Um… that’s also *not* what I said. Girls are expected *to relate to* men. Men are the default. Women are supposed to be okay with not seeing themselves, because they are supposed to relate to men as heroes.
Why is white male the default?
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:43 pm
The gnomes were cool enough, yes, but there’s just something belly splitting about trailer trash elves. It might be me, since – God knows – I practiced enough trailer court law when I was still in practice. But, nah, just about _everybody_ finds the trailer trash elves belly splitting.
Jim Hines on Correia and MacFarlane | Swan Tower
January 29, 2014 @ 2:44 pm
[…] So, there’s this. […]
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:44 pm
I can’t help you with famous, Jim, but I have a certain skill with infamy…
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:46 pm
Actually, Larry stresses several times that if that is what floats your boat, go for it. How is that not inclusive? On the other hand, the original post starts with “I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.” Wow, how inclusive.
SF has been exploring gender bending for at least 5 decades.
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 2:46 pm
Really, so you don’t read the blurb on the back of the book before you read it? You just pick up the book and finish it no mater what? That would be a first. Most people I know go “i want a book like x or by x because I know I like x”. For instance most people get to left hand of darkness one of two ways.One way is they like fantasy so they read her earth sea books and then they like her and so they read left hand of darkness. Another way is they read the synopsis of the book or a friend tells them the synopsis and they read the book. In either case they go into the book with an idea of what to expect.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:47 pm
Could you please point me to where I did that so I can correct my error? Thanks!
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 2:48 pm
Its not or have you not been to the book store recently? White Female is the default these days. By the way Larry’s lead in MHI and Grimnoir are both mixed raced.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 2:49 pm
Um… plenty of trans* (and non-trans*) folk id as other than man or woman. Also, what’s the biology of an XY person with androgen insensitivity please?
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 2:49 pm
Nah; they’ve got _some_ agenda, but of the seven areas they’re interested in:
Queer Main Characters
MC’s of Color
Women MC’s
Disabled MC’s
Science saves the day!
Far future Stories set outside North America
half have nothing necessarily to do with modern, “enlightened” sentiment, and only one appears to have anything to do with non-binary gender.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 2:50 pm
I read. All the damn time. So, there was a pretty interesting set of studies. They found that when women spoke roughly a third of the time, they were perceived as dominating the conversation. I think that’s what’s happening to you.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:51 pm
Why on earth should I be tolerant of your deliberate ignorance and misinformation? This has overtones of the whole “Why won’t you tolerate my intolerance” nonsense that pops up from time to time.
Rio
January 29, 2014 @ 2:51 pm
One of the things about the acknowledgement of non-binary gender is, when someone expresses their gender identity, it’s polite to refer to them as that identity. If that person who appears female to you states that they are male, using male pronouns is polite. In other words, the person who has the identity gets to choose what that identity is; it should not be imposed upon them from outside.
Laura Resnick
January 29, 2014 @ 2:52 pm
Stop! THINK how much that scheming loveseat will take from you in the divorce!
peavybob
January 29, 2014 @ 2:52 pm
I’d have to agree with Marc on this. I enjoyed reading your response, but Macfarlane was most definitely pushing for all SF to conform to her ideals, rather than just inform people of alternative works, and thus opened herself up for mocking. Correia can be a bit over the top with his fiskings, but the goal of them is more to make fun of the deserving person for the entertainment of his readers rather than to actually enlighten them. As such, strawman arguments word twisting and perfectly suited. Also, the Cismale Gendernormative Fascist line is an inside joke with his readers.
I do find your assumption (probably satirical) that Larry uses exclusivly white musclebound manly men and big-busted blonde women rather amusing, especially considering that Larry himself is Latino and of his 3 main series the only one he wrote a white protagonist for was his 1930’s pulp noir.
Rio
January 29, 2014 @ 2:53 pm
An inadvertent typo and a willfully ignorant assumption of someone’s gender identity are not the same thing. Please google “false equivalence fallacy”. Thanks!
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 2:54 pm
I really hate to engage in word war with a professional writer but the word end has a pretty definitive meaning.
Darn, I can’t find a definition of end that states to augment, to add to, to maintain while providing additional choices that have been there all along. Especially considering SF has been exploring gender for at least 5 decades. You could make the argument this was a poor choice of words but that would hardly make her more appealing as a writer.
Hate to break it to you but normal is the norm. That statement does not exclude anything.
Sistercoyote
January 29, 2014 @ 2:55 pm
I’ll be 45 in June and all y’all can come on over and play in my yard. I’m even near Reno, where it is (temporarily) warm enough that you can play in the yard only in a light windbreaker and not worry about freezing anything off!
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 2:55 pm
Honor Harrington, White Female, huge series. Anita Blake, Sukie Stackhouse, all the other paranormal romance leads. All white females. I might be wrong about the color I am just going of the cover. The whole Valdemar Series, white female lead. Elizabeth Moon uses all white female leads. Hines himself has that princess series and his other major one is goblins, definitely not white males. Lots of world series like Discworld and Ring of Fire have multiple females leads. I love the witches from discworld.
Michi Trota (@GeekMelange)
January 29, 2014 @ 2:56 pm
Damn it, Jim, any comment I could have made in response to this has now been erased by the coffee I’ve snarfed on my keyboard in amusement. I hope you’re happy.
Abe
January 29, 2014 @ 2:57 pm
Bringing up non-binary gender identity doesn’t through me out of the story… but it has to makes sense within the story. Otherwise you fail at “suspension of disbelief” because I read it and go “Why does the author include that? Is that foreshadowing? Is that going to be relevant to the choices the character makes?” Same with race or anything else. If you include the description of a prominent (or a multitude) of scars, I am going to assume the character has been in a lot of fights, and this will have an impact of the character’s choices. Telling me he failed 3rd grade geography but ended up with a MA in it, will tell me that he either pushes past what he sees as his limitations, that he had a bad teacher or something happened in his life. That should give the reader a hint to his personality that will explain why the character does something within the plot. The character is transgendered and experienced discrimination years ago? That explains why the character goes out of the way to defend another character or act as a mentor. But just informing me and then not doing anything with that info plot wise is a major failure in my eyes.
The vast majority defaults to that? What about Asimov, Varley, Feist, Eddings, Robert Jordan, Goodkind, Heinlein, Le Guin, Stackpole, Correia, Gemmel and so many others I have read over the years? Just because you default to a race might be an issue in your own mind… I tend to assume they are mix-race unless otherwise stated because most people are mixed-race to some extent, race as a phenotype is so weak that it takes only one generation to mix them together.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 2:59 pm
That particular bit was intended as satirical, aimed more at the broader state of the genre than Correia specifically, since I haven’t read his fiction. But like the CGF line, I think some of that gets lost when a different audience reads it. And it’s definitely possible I wasn’t as clear in making various points as I wanted to be.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:00 pm
I am indeed 😀
Michi Trota (@GeekMelange)
January 29, 2014 @ 3:01 pm
Because (cis) hetero white men are the *only* characters that EVERYONE’S supposed to be able to relate to because they’re the NORM, Muse. Everyone else is just a “special demographic” that will only appeal to people who share those same characteristics.
Great. Now I’ve got a headache from regurgitating that twisted sense of logic.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:01 pm
“I really hate to engage in word war with a professional writer but the word end has a pretty definitive meaning.”
So does the word “default.” Both words are important here.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 3:02 pm
Um… I’m happy for you that you can name some white women.
Also the leads in Valdemar aren’t all women. Last Herald Mage is a (gay) dude. A bunch of them have been dudes.
Rothfuss Name of the Wind – Dude
Scalzi – Old Man’s War series – Dude
GoT – Mixed, but mostly action figures are dudes
Most Heinlein (but not all, Friday frex) – Dudes
Bolos – Dudes
Shall I continue?
Stareyes
January 29, 2014 @ 3:02 pm
Fair enough. But, say, if I picked up, say, The Warrior’s Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold, I might know going in that Miles Vorkosigan is the main character, and is assumed male by book copy (a male-gendered name and male pronouns). I don’t know that, say, minor reoccurring character Bel Thorne is non-gender-binary until I read the thing. And, while reviewers might mention that Bujold tackles issues of gender in her work, they’ll probably also mentions she writes good action and a compelling main character. I could easily have come to Bujold’s work without knowing that any of her characters are something other than male or female. Many people recommend Bujold for reasons other than her use of gender.
Jason C
January 29, 2014 @ 3:03 pm
WordPress is a nice platform with a good mobile option.
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 3:04 pm
Well, as an “informed, elite writer”, you should realize that my whoopdeedoo was a matter of “who gives a shit”. As in, :who gives a shit if your character is a one-legged tomcat with a robot brain that likes to shed on cakes and whizz on electrical outlets for the tingle” unless it serves the story. And that was the entire purpose. You call it ignorant and minsinformed… however, I call it true acceptance when I don’t have to have labels shoved down my throat to make it acceptable. you, and the author of the original piece, are all about labels so as to define what is acceptable and what isn’t. If I was as ‘ignorant’ as you seem to believe, I wouldn’t read the likes of Spider Robinson’s Callahan series, or Terry Pratchett’s magnificent Discworld series. You are arguing for labels, Larry, and I, are saying Eff the labels, tell a story.
Katie
January 29, 2014 @ 3:04 pm
I don’t know if this is the case, but I know that some blogs auto-moderate posts in certain cases. It doesn’t necessarily mean they are deleted, just that they are pending a review by a real live person. I’ve had that happen to me on blogs where I was a new poster. Just throwing that out there as a possibility that it may not be a conscious decision to delete posts, but rather a delay in posting until someone can review the content of the post.
*I have no experience with tor blogs, so I don’t know if they do this. This is just something I’ve seen happen on other blogs, so I am mentioning it as a possibility.
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 3:05 pm
There you go, arguing for more labels to define, categorize, and limit people.
Jason C
January 29, 2014 @ 3:05 pm
Honor Harrington is actually mixed Asian and white. Just nitpicking.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:07 pm
Jason – is that a plugin, or a built-in feature with WordPress? Because the plugin I’m using now obviously isn’t cutting it.
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 3:09 pm
This whole thing is just sad. These people have taken over the comment section. They don’t want to engage,they want to bully you (and people who agree with you) in your own sandbox, Jim. They probably get hyped up by the adrenalin and feel good about themselves, while interacting with them costs you energy and leads nowhere.
If Tor.com is deleting posts, this is probably why and good for them.
Jonathan
January 29, 2014 @ 3:09 pm
Jim,
Did you really think that the demand for expulsions from SFWA would be limited to the likes of Beale?
Eve and her ilk want conformity in the name of tolerance. Only it’s a tolerance for those who agree with them and no one else.
Michi Trota (@GeekMelange)
January 29, 2014 @ 3:10 pm
“I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories” != there can never be binary gender characters EVER in science fiction stories. Alex is advocating for widening the gender presentation of characters in SF beyond that binary, which for a genre that’s supposed to be forward-looking, doesn’t seem out of bounds at all. It’s asking for writers to stop and think and not always create characters that default to “man” or “woman” with no variance considered, especially because the reality is that gender is NOT strictly binary. Sticking with binary gender as the default in SF is actually making those worlds appear more limited than reality. It’s telling SF writers that there are more toys in the box to be played with in creating those worlds, so why not take them out and use them and try something different, instead of always sticking with ye old comfortable favorites?
It’s just baffling how simply stating that moving beyond a binary gender default in the genre could help make it better is being interpreted as “cramming” some sort of political message “down people’s throats.”
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:13 pm
The ignorance I was referring to is your misunderstanding of gender and your unwillingness to listen or learn to correct that misunderstanding.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:14 pm
In my experience, things like that drive away some readers and draw in others. I don’t know if there’s a net gain or loss either way. Probably depends on the individual author and story.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 3:14 pm
People are allowed to choose what they wish to be called. We call that being polite here in decent human land.
Stephen Dunscombe
January 29, 2014 @ 3:15 pm
“I Will Fear No Evil” is a… I’m going to go with “fascinating”, I think… read.
It’s Heinlein specifically writing about gender politics. Like, head-on, inherent in the premise of the book.
Um.
I love Heinlein, but I don’t blame *anyone* for putting him down in disgust, and my completely nonscientific observation indicates that “I Will Fear No Evil” is one of the worst offenders in his oeuvre.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:17 pm
Oh, pbbt. Next you’re going to say that wading through the almost 200 comments here is *not* the most productive use of my time! 😉
Rio
January 29, 2014 @ 3:17 pm
Jim: search your post for “makfarlane”
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 3:18 pm
Sure continue. Now go to your local Barnes and Nobles and count how many self’s those books get verses Laurel K. Hamilton. What I am naming are whole sections of the SciFi area at your local B and N. Rothfuss and Scalzi probaly have one whole self combined. Valdemaar has about 3 or 4. Harrington propably from top to bottom one unit. Hamilton and Stackhouse 3 a piece. And then you get to all the copy cat paranormal Romance which takes up at least a third of the remaining space. If Heinlein has more than 5 or six books on the self including Friday I would be surprised. Bolos probably isn’t even there. Your decades old male scifi is gone. The modern stuff is female centric because men stopped buying new scifi.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 3:18 pm
Silence all dissent!! This illustrates the entire issue. If Jim didn’t want anyone in his sandbox, he could have avoided the subject altogether. In a manner of speaking, he was throwing sand.
Stephen Dunscombe
January 29, 2014 @ 3:18 pm
… I will be over here, dying at the idea that Heinlein didn’t write “message” fiction.
MojoRonin
January 29, 2014 @ 3:18 pm
So the first line of her post calling for the end of the default binary gender character doesn’t mean that she’s calling for the end of the default binary gender?
Anya
January 29, 2014 @ 3:21 pm
Thank you so much for posting this since I hadn’t seen the previous two articles (the second of which I’m glad I haven’t seen, but all the same). I’ve had the happy coincidence of stumbling across two books that tossed in a gay character without that being the central focus of the book (The Waking Engine and Mistwalker), which was quite refreshing BECAUSE the character was so much more than just their sexuality which happened to not be straight. I hope that I’ll start coming across more spec fic books that do the same thing with gender since that generally makes me AS A READER even happier with a good book. I’m a bit insulted by the opinion that “readers are insensitive rubes” as a reader for some reason ;-).
I also feel like I’ve somehow missed a bunch of sci-fi since I really haven’t noticed this crazy amount of “message fic” being published, which is a bit concerning as a sci-fi book blogger, haha (I’m just going to assume that I’m not the crazy one for now!).
I have this nice little list on GoodReads titled “don’t-read”, guess which urban fantasy author just got a spot on it?! 😀
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 3:21 pm
Fair. I didn’t remember. I just remember the Queen is Caucasian descended but black skinned and the black power descended heavy worlders are white skinned. Because it was odd and memorable. Honor just looks like a generic dark haired white woman on all the covers I have.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 3:21 pm
Okay. You actually named mostly authors, with the exception of paranormal romance.
Valdemar is *not* mostly about women.
I dispute your characterization of those bookshelves. CF the study on perception of women speaking.
Where do you think I *bought* the Bolos?
And look at TV – still mostly male. Regardless *none* of this hits the point I *actually* made IRT who is expected to empathize.
Jonathan
January 29, 2014 @ 3:22 pm
Jim,
I quote from the TOR post:
“I want to never again read entire anthologies of SF stories or large-cast novels where every character is binary-gendered”
“SF that presents a rigid, unquestioned gender binary is false and absurd”
We all know where this is going. The next step would be to criticize works that don’t conform to her rules.