Why I Cancelled my Reddit Q&A
SERIOUS TRIGGER WARNING FOR RAPE
ETA: It’s almost midnight, and there are now close to 400 comments on this post. I’ve read them all, and I want to thank those of you who contributed to the conversation, on both sides. A decade ago, I would have been good for at least three more hours, but as one commenter pointed out, I’m old. I’m therefore going to declare this party over, thank you for coming, and kick you out of my house so I can go to bed. (I.e., I’m turning off the comments now.)
I know some people will take this as further proof that I’m a grandstanding, hypocritical, pro-censorship, freedom-hating, puppy-kicking, fascist poopyhead. That’s fine. But with this many comments, I think most of the arguments have been made, and most of the insults hurled.
Have a good night, all.
#
One of the events I had lined up for the launch of my new book was a Q&A with Reddit’s fantasy community. I did an “Ask Me Anything” session with them earlier this year and had a great time, so I was looking forward to another round. And then Twitter pointed me to an active Reddit discussion which starts with, “Reddit’s had a few threads about sexual assault victims, but are there any redditors from the other side of the story? What were your motivations? Do you regret it?”
Numerous rapists jumped in to tell their stories. I’m not going to link to them.
The comments and reactions were mixed. Some people were horrified. Others tried to reassure the rapists, to minimize what they had done, or to praise people’s courage in anonymously talking about how they committed rape. There’s plenty of victim blaming, and comments from the “Women lie about rape to attack men!!!” contingent.
Earlier today I emailed the person who was coordinating my Reddit event to tell him I will not be doing it unless that thread is removed. Given the nature of Reddit as an open, relatively unmoderated community, I don’t expect this to happen.
An announcement was already posted that I would be giving away a copy of Libriomancer on Reddit. I don’t think it’s fair to back out of that, so I’m planning to post an additional giveaway on my site and ask my contact to update that announcement with a link to the giveaway. (He has been incredibly cool and supportive of my decision, and agrees that the rape posts are offensive and should be dealt with by the moderators.)
There are aspects of this decision I need to talk about. A Jezebel post called Rapists Explain Themselves on Reddit and We Should Listen talks about the way this thread provides insight into the minds of rapists, and how it’s important to have this conversation in unprotected spaces like Reddit:
“Nothing will change if we discuss rape culture in a vacuum. Taking the discussion beyond that vacuum, however, means opening it up to a wider audience that isn’t necessarily sympathetic. Reddit may not be the best place for that, but it’s certainly a start — and that’s important. It’s in these less-protected, less-sacred spaces where the conversation is needed the most.”
Others have argued that it’s important to understand evil, to see where it comes from and recognize that these are seemingly-normal people who’ve committed horrible acts. One person said that reading the posts helped her to realize that there are men deliberately targeting women, and that her rape wasn’t an accident or a “misunderstanding,” but a deliberate choice by the rapist. In other words, it helped her see that it wasn’t her fault.
That really stuck with me. But for me personally, the harm far outweighs the good.
It is important that we understand why people rape. But there are other ways to find that insight. Books, essays, research, and more. I’ve spoken with rapists and batterers, and it did give me a better understanding as to how this crime happens. But the circumstances of those conversations were very different. They were controlled, with people who had been convicted and held accountable for their actions. People who, as far as I could tell, appeared to genuinely regret what they had done. In situations where excuses were not tolerated.
Some of my problems with the Reddit discussion are as follows.
-Who are these people? My guess is that most of these stories are true, but I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who is trolling for attention. In the overall scheme of things though, this is a minor complaint.
-No accountability or responsibility. In none of the stories I read were the rapists held accountable for their actions. Nor did they take responsibility. The pattern tended to be, “Here’s the story of how I raped this girl, and here are all of my excuses. I got away with it, but I feel really bad now of course, so give me cookies!”
-Some of the posts are essentially How-To guides for rapists. Rape is not an accident. It’s not a misunderstanding. Predators practice their technique. They learn how best to target and overpower their victims. And now we have a thread from experienced rapists sharing their successful techniques.
-Rape is a crime of sex and power. I read some of these stories, and I see rapists getting off on the chance to relive their crime. The sexual aspect comes from the graphic descriptions of what they did, and the power comes from the reactions of the commenters. The dynamic I’m seeing here is one that allows a number of rapists to recapture the rush of their crimes.
-The Hurt Outweighs the Good. I won’t deny that some people have taken positive things from all this, but I believe the harm far outweighs that good.
#
I know Reddit is not a single unified group, any more than Twitter or LiveJournal or Facebook. My guess is that very few members of the Reddit Fantasy group have any idea what’s happening in the rapist thread, and that many or most of them would be horrified. I feel like I’m punishing innocent people for actions they had nothing to do with, and I don’t like that.
I’m also a big believer in freedom of speech. These people have the right to tell their stories. But that right to speech doesn’t obligate one of the largest sites on the Internet to provide a platform for their speech. Reddit, as I understand it, prides itself on a relative lack of moderation and an “anything goes” approach. To quote one member, “It allows any voice to be heard no matter how uneducated, insensitive or outright wrong.”
I don’t think people should be silenced for lack of education, for tone, or for having a different opinion than me. And I’m not going to tell Reddit how to run their sites or communities. Nor am I going to try to say everyone who chooses to stay with Reddit is a bad person.
But I’ve made the choice to walk away, both for myself, and for the hope that it sends a message to those with the ability to make a change at Reddit.
Lame Author Is Lame
July 28, 2012 @ 8:35 pm
I didn’t care for that thread myself. Went expecting to find interesting thoughts from rapists as it really isn’t something you get to read. Saw a lot of bullshit instead and it wasn’t interesting. I did my down voting and left.
However Mr Author I have never heard of before. You don’t have a fucking clue how reddit works. It’s an entirely different subreddit. I agree that the thread was wrong but you know what could have had more impact? Doing a fucking AMA and expressing your concern to the fucking audience you dipshit. If people value your work at all there is a chance they value your opinion. So instead of reaching out and possibly changing some minds about the issues with victim blaming. You take your ball and fucking go home, coming off like a complete ignorant prick.
Didn’t like the thread great, go cry some more fuck face.
beforrester
July 28, 2012 @ 8:36 pm
It’s funny how many redditors are so up in arms about this as a “free speech” issue. Bull, free speech is all about the government restricting the rights of individuals to express themselves. Jim isn’t restricting reddit’s rights at all, just choosing not to participate.
Danielle
July 28, 2012 @ 8:55 pm
Jim, I just wanted to extend a sincere thank you for this. It’s been reassuring to know I’m not the only person who’s found this unacceptable, and I appreciate you not furthering a for-profit company that has no interest in even basic standards. Please stand by your decision.
It is not just the existence of rapists but the rampant display of support and the clear evidence that the majority of the community has no problem excusing rape. One survivor posted her story, and in response a redditor said This thread is for stories of perpetrators, I just knew some dumb c— (not censored at reddit, obviously) would mess it up. That received a ton of upvotes. That kind of environment is not conducive to learning – it’s creating a pro-rape atmosphere.
Once again, thank you for taking a stand.
nimh
July 28, 2012 @ 8:55 pm
Stop being an ass. Seriously. Just stop. You’re not being edgy, you’re not being brave, you’re not making much of a point, you’re not doing Reddit any favours, you’re just trolling, and you’re not even doing a good job at that. And if this was Reddit, you’d have been downvoted to oblivion and, depending on the subreddit in question, yes, banned.
LifeisGrand
July 28, 2012 @ 8:56 pm
@ Fred: Self-promoting is done in the hopes to sell; it boils down to the same thing in the end.
jim cleveland
July 28, 2012 @ 9:04 pm
Jim, thank you for giving your reason. I’ve been on Reddit over five years and witnessed the slow moral decline. What makes it worse us that some felt a need to comment and attack your character and opinion, as if you have no right. I’m very sad and scare for this sociopathic, selfish mindset of the majority.
Not Impressed
July 28, 2012 @ 9:07 pm
I would like to discuss the points that you believe vindicate your decision to cancel your reddit Q&A.
1) Who are these people?
As you noted this is a minor complaint. In fact, whether people are telling the truth or lying, what matters is that they are willing to be seen as having committed, or being complicit with, a rape. So the liars are really no better than the truth tellers if we limit the scope to the actual posting of a ‘story’ in the comment section.
2) That is correct, no-one has taken any responsibility, and none of the posters sound like they want to make amends or turn themselves in. My question for you is who does this hurt? If you mean that former or current rapists see no reprisals or punishments whatsoever, I agree that idea turns my stomach. However, with or without this post, these posters would not have taken any responsibility. In that sense, I do not see any real harm in it; yes it violates our sense of ‘justice’ ‘mojo’ or ‘karma.’ But these acts have already been committed, and the posters already weren’t taking responsibility for them. Your sense of injustice ought to be at least as strong had you found out about these stories in another way, but you would not have. If you mean that the posters were getting validation despite not having taken responsibility, then this point is identical to point (4) and I will address this there.
3) Would you count CSI or Law and Order SVU as ‘how to’ guides for killers and rapists? In fact, if I recall correctly, there happens to be some violence in some (all) of your novels. Are your novels ‘how-to’ guides for violence? Yes, people may take things from stories, but you are stretching credulity incredibly (I couldn’t resist) thin.
4) On this point I agree with everything you say. The “dynamic…is on that allows a number of rapists to recapture the rush of their crimes.” However I do not see where this actually causes any harm unless we make the (incredibly tenuous) suggestion that this will cause rapists to rape more often. Like in point (2) this offends our sense of justice. Those who have done wrong should make amends or have retribution brought upon them. They certainly shouldn’t be able to relive their crimes and enjoy it. I totally agree, but who does this harm?
(5) Your previous points suggest that the hurt outweighs the good, and you conclude such here. I don’t think that any of the problems you listed demonstrate hurt caused by this post.
As I have made clear earlier, we stand shoulder to shoulder in denouncing the people who wrote these stories, denouncing the actions described in these stories, and in denouncing the (partially) positive response to these ‘stories’. However nothing in you post describes harm, what you describe is disgust.
I do think, however, that a careful analysis w/r/t whether or not this posts, and posts like it, indicate (or even worse increase) systemic attitudes of misogyny. If you want to make a case against this post, this is the real way to do it. All you have done is go on an entitled tirade and cancel a Q&A as a publicity stunt to denounce an action (series of actions) that disgusts you. Well I agree with you; I am disgusted too and in your situation I may have pulled the exact same bullshit stunt. But lets call a spade a spade. You knew you had a chance to directly denounce something you (clearly) feel strongly about and so you did so. The points are clearly made up AFTER you made the decision to cancel the Q&A.
I guess what I want to say now, is thatI also would like it if posts like that didn’t do well on reddit or on the internet in general. BUT You think the AskReddit post in question is a valid reason not to want to be associated with the website; were you aware that reddit also has subreddits such as /r/jailbait (closed down after the AC360 scandal, though I’m sure many permutations still exist) or /r/beatingwomen or /r/mensrights? The fact is, reddit is a content aggregator; that means reddit is representative of the internet as a whole. There will be great shit and terrible shit and that’s just the way she goes. All of that said, perhaps the subreddits I just mentioned (and just so you know there is a subreddit for every horrible or degraded thing you can imagine, though illegal ones usually get shut down) and posts like the one in question are enough reason for you to distance yourself from the website.
In any case, I respect your choice to cancel your Q&A, even though I think your reasoning is really bad (though as I have stated, I don’t think the article you posted is actually your reasoning).
Charles Stover
July 28, 2012 @ 9:10 pm
Redditor here. It’s not up to the reddit community to remove submissions, so it’s unrealistic to expect the topic to be removed at your request.
Though I support your disgust at the topic, I’m not sure this is the best way of handling it. The ultimatum is impossible.
I think better alternatives would be:
Doing the AMA anyway, in which you would explicitly express your disgust at the topic. At top-voted AMA would get a lot of views by redditors to your opinion on the subject.
Doing the AMA is a different subreddit — one known to not condone victim-blaming, for example.
Playing a card from The Oatmeal and turn it into a charity event. Maybe start a drive that goes towards helping rape victims or battered women or other such areas. Tie it into the AMA such that only people who donated (any amount, even $1) could ask a question and that question would get a guaranteed answer. Or for every $X donated (not matter who donated it), you would answer a question asked.
Make it positive.
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 9:17 pm
> But /r/fantasy isn’t in control of /r/askreddit, any more than ABC News controlled the content of Miramax.
So, every single subreddit is a different *legal entity*? Wow, think of the tax returns.
Please. They’re all just boards on a single site run by a single company. Reddit may not empower the mods of one subreddit to moderate another, but treating them as autonomous units is just an editorial convention, not a legal fact.
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 9:18 pm
> It’s censorship because he didn’t simply refuse to do the interview; he said, “ABC, get Disney to censor all copies of that film and I’ll do the interview.”
So, if Mr Hines had put it as, “Given the presence of this subreddit, I am not comfortable doing the AMA,” that would not be censorship, agreed? The *only* thing that makes it censorship is the request on his part to remove the subreddit?
rae
July 28, 2012 @ 9:26 pm
Sites have their own culture. Reddit’s culture is why I don’t frequent that site, either.
Liz
July 28, 2012 @ 9:31 pm
I have tried to write a response 4 times today. But I keep realizing that rebuking the posters who are defending reddit and getting so abusive is pointless. Their defense of reddit is actually justifying your decision to my mind. I guess I’ll just say, Good for you, and thank you for speaking out not just now, but continuously about these issues.
Willie
July 28, 2012 @ 9:31 pm
Wow, what a ridiculous move. Is everyone this scared of the real world and its issues? Grow a pair, dude.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:33 pm
I try to be better than that, but there are times when the sheer volume of dumbassery gets to be a bit much, and some snark slips through.
Point noted, though.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:36 pm
Um … the whole point of this post was to explain why I’d be staying off of your Reddit. I’m sorry, was that not clear?
nimh
July 28, 2012 @ 9:37 pm
I am not the commenter you replied to but yes, that would roughly be my take. Backing out of the Q and A is not a censorship issue. But using the decision to back out of the Q and A as a way to pressure the owners/moderators to censor the offending thread is. He’s still not censoring anything himself, but he’s trying to use whatever clout he has to persuade others to censor something.
Woodman
July 28, 2012 @ 9:38 pm
@ Woodman: I posted here before under the name “LifeisGrand,” (and no, I’m not trolling you). 🙂 I did this as a test to see if we can use a name previously employed by someone else. If my reply is posted, then the “Chris” who posted above you may or may not be the first “Chris.”
We don’t know.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:42 pm
Dude, you can totally make pompous illogical comments! But other people have the right to point out that you’re being an ass. (It’s part of that whole free speech thing, you know?)
Ashleigh
July 28, 2012 @ 9:43 pm
Canceling an AMA your fans were expecting just because someone posted something (on a huge site with a ridiculous number of subreddits) that you disagree with? Reddit is like a giant collection of websites in one place. The topic thread wasn’t even posted in AMA, it was posted in AskReddit. Maybe you shouldn’t post on the internet because the internet has a lot of things that you don’t agree with. Probably best for everyone.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:46 pm
Kai,
Sorry for the delay – date night with my wife, and I’m working to catch up on the 200+ comments and emails that came in while I was watching Batman.
Some of my education came from first-hand work with various perpetrators. It was powerful and opening, but I totally get that it’s not a realistic possibility for most people.
But there’s also been a great deal of research, including interviews both with convicted rapists (who are, much like the folks on the Reddit threat, often more than happy to tell their stories). There’s also a lot of research done with “ordinary” men and people in general, asking what they would and wouldn’t do. It’s amazing how many men will admit to being willing to commit rape, or that they’ve done so, and talk about why … if you don’t use the word “rape.”
I’m a bit overwhelmed with everything right now, and I apologize for not having specific references for you, but hopefully this at least gives a kind of starting point?
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:48 pm
Hi Hod,
All else aside, I’m very glad that thread was helpful for you. And I know you’re not alone in that. I’ve heard from at least one other rape survivor who found it disturbing as hell, but also helpful.
I’ve also heard from rape survivors who were simply hurt, and took nothing positive from it.
I wish it was a simple clear-cut decision, but I had to go with what felt right to me.
Best,
Jim
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:49 pm
I’ve read this thread three times, and I’m not sure what’s happening, but it amuses me. It feels like we’re on the verge of starting in on a “Who’s on first?” type routine.
TanukiMario
July 28, 2012 @ 9:50 pm
I was going to borrow it from the library. Now I’m buying it. Your move, douche.
Danila
July 28, 2012 @ 9:52 pm
The point of bringing up the child porn is the moral bankruptcy of the Reddit administrators. It took them a long time to come around to simply stating that child pornography would not be allowed. The underage sex reddits were some of the most popular, and the one entitled “jailbait” was voted best Reddit by the community. The majority of Redditors were against the decision, citing “free speech”. Now we have a thread where rapists are telling their stories and receiving support, yes support, from the majority of commenters. Right at the top of the post it says “We’re trying to have serious discussions and some people feel deeply bad about what they did and need support to talk about it.” From what I can see, most of the support takes the form of saying “that wasn’t really rape”.
I know many communities that would not tolerate support for rapists. Reddit is not one of those places. And that’s fine, but if Mr. Hines doesn’t want to be associated with that then he has a right.
I’ve never heard Jim Hines before, I was linked here from Metafilter. I will make a point to read some of his books now. That’s a choice I get to make, to support his speech.
ToubaboKoomi
July 28, 2012 @ 9:53 pm
Reddit is not a place you, as a public figure, should want to be associated with. There was a time when it was a decent site, but that time is long gone.
I, for one, think you did the right thing. Redditors need to see that wallowing in shit has consequences.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:53 pm
Okay, “spacedicks” is officially the most bizarrely random thing to pop up in this discussion…
Jim C. Hines Cancels Reddit AMA | Wayfaring Feminist
July 28, 2012 @ 9:54 pm
[…] Why I Cancelled my Reddit Q&A Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like […]
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:55 pm
Sara,
Sure, you might have gotten to that same realization in other ways. Regardless, I’m glad you got there, and I hope you’re in a slightly better space. Because it absolutely wasn’t your fault.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 9:56 pm
Fair enough. Obviously I came to a different decision, but I recognize and appreciate that not everyone agrees with me. Thanks!
eltodd
July 28, 2012 @ 9:57 pm
I bet he sells a lot more books this way. If he had done the AMA, I’d have never heard of this guy. Instead, he creates a controversy using a rape thread. Genius marketing! I wonder if it was on purpose.
Appreciative
July 28, 2012 @ 9:58 pm
I just wanted to say thank you. I know people should be able to discuss these things openly, but the way it was discussed with such lack of respect for victims really disappointed me (especially downvoting most people who tried to speak up for victims).
Thank you for being able to stand above it even if it might affect your Reddit fanbase. I think it’s great when someone who reaches a broader audience is able to speak out against a popular opinion (at least on Reddit).
I actually wasn’t familiar with your writing until this incident. I love reading various genres, including fantasy, so I will definitely have to pick your book up. 🙂 Thanks again, and keep being great!
Bryan Mitchell
July 28, 2012 @ 9:59 pm
The whole idea of free speech is that even the vile repulsive stuff is protected. Uncontroversial speech doesn’t need protecting. To boycott an entire site for this reason seems silly, but Jim is free to do what he’d like. I just wish he had backed out without asking for the thread to be taken down instead of making an ultimatum. That really rubs me the wrong way.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:01 pm
That’s a great question.
I’ll preface this by saying I didn’t and don’t expect Reddit to pull that thread. But … okay, this might sound weird, and I can’t guarantee it will make sense. I guess I’ve always felt hopeful for change. I remember sitting down with a rather sexist cartoonist at our University newspaper, working with students referred for sexual harassment, sitting in on DV groups. My hope was that these people would see how their actions were hurtful and choose to change them.
An apology is just words. Sometimes they’re good words, and a lot of the time they’re weasel words. But actions … actions are the beginning of change.
It’s totally Reddit’s choice what they want to do. But if they choose to make that change, that’s something I would want to support.
Hopefully that makes sense?
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:03 pm
I’m genuinely curious to know what you see as grandstanding here.
Mark
July 28, 2012 @ 10:04 pm
When you talk about other countries encouraging “responsible” speech over “free” speech, I think of harsh British libel laws being used to silence journalists and critics, and laws against Holocaust denial inadvertently giving credibility to racists and neo-Nazis who talk of “Jewish conspiracies”.
Would you do an interview with a newspaper that had previously interviewed Roman Polanski?
lame
July 28, 2012 @ 10:05 pm
You seem to have problems keeping up with one thread with a few hundred (generously counted) people. Now monitor 13 million. Go ahead, we will wait.
gabe
July 28, 2012 @ 10:06 pm
I don’t know much about that website. But I understand that it’s a place for everyone to discuss things freely, and refusing to do your “Ama” there because of the millions of users a few talk about rape is just about as logical as refusing to write books because some rapists might read them.
I think these subjects should be prosecuted (which, I understand, should be possible with by tracing their computers) but frankly, that is not your job, and you have no right to stigmatize the rest of the people there for the words of some.
If everyone had your kind of mindset, we would still be burning witches today, and frankly, I have lost the last bit of respect for you. I hope you read this, but don’t waste your time writing an immature and defensive response like on many of the other (admittedly just as immature) comments here.
Bryan Mitchell
July 28, 2012 @ 10:06 pm
I just wish you had backed out without making it an ultimatum. It’s really sad that you had to try to throw your weight around to limit the speech of others. Next time, do everyone a favor, and just back out without making the demand that content be deleted. Don’t pretend that you’re for free speech as long as you continue to make ultimatums like that.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:07 pm
Okay, the trolling is annoying and boring, but the macaroni salad bit was funny.
Jess
July 28, 2012 @ 10:08 pm
I wouldn’t want to go to that strip mall. I wouldn’t want to go to a signing there, either. That’s not a place I would want to be.
All Jim said is that Reddit is a place he doesn’t want to be. Frankly, I don’t blame him.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:09 pm
I’ve spent several minutes trying to imagine what a “minority of racist piece of shit” would be…
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:10 pm
What? More interesting than my LOL Books? Okay, *now* I’m depressed.
Another view
July 28, 2012 @ 10:10 pm
There’s another thing to consider here, Jim. We live in a world where rape stats are regularly underplayed by institutions that encourage under reporting. That make it much harder to obtain a conviction of rape than any other similarly-affecting crime and, hell, one in which in several major first world nations (that all constitute ‘the market’ for your work in fact) don’t even recognise female rape as a crime.
All these things right-minded people would like to change and yet with all those ‘legitimate’ opportunities for discourse you highlight that change isn’t happening, or isn’t happening fast enough. So, with the greatest of possible respect, your claim that there are ‘enough’ is at best unfounded in reality.
With spaces like reddit and other public internet forums something new is being tried. Sure it’s base and ugly and confusing at times, but that’s the nature of new public discourse and always has been, from the hellenic states onwards. What you’re witnessing is simply people who have done nothing more than listen to the words of wise men for years: If you always do what you’ve always done then you’ll always have what you’ve always had.
Right now we have a rape culture and we’ve always limited discourse to your ‘legitimate means’. That needs to change.
Why you have chosen to act contrary to that goal, besides a supremely arrogant claim that you know best the way to shape public discourse on such a weighty subject for so many people I guess we’ll never know, but be under no illusions that is exactly what you are doing.
So please, feel free to ‘disassociate’ yourself from people trying to do something different in the hope of affecting real social change. I truly hope that you enjoy the period of back-patting it earns you. But later, when exposure of these people leads to real change – I hope you wake up one morning sweating because you realise everything written here is true – and you just made yourself one big part of the problem, not the solution.
Good day to you, sir.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:10 pm
There is absolutely zero need or reason to apologize for not having read my stuff.
David
July 28, 2012 @ 10:13 pm
With the greatest respect sir it appears that your objection is simply academic snobbery.
What right do you have to suggest that an open candid forum in which rapists and victims are incredibly truthful about their positions and actions is morally wrong? Of course I would never side with those that commit sexual assaults, but I do appreciate the openness of a forum that allows those heinous individuals to explain succinctly their motivations.
Thanking them for participating, and understanding their actions in a sociological way is not appeasing or even legitimizing their actions. But I believe it can only be a good thing that Victims, and those that wish to learn about the causes of sexual assault can be found in a easy to access, colloquial language, not hidden in a subscribed to Journal is far more beneficial.
I beg you reconsider your position, as this would be equal to refusing to allow Google to register your website as they have links to ‘immoral material’.
Angiers
July 28, 2012 @ 10:15 pm
That is the most asinine thing I’ve heard as of late. Censorship is the prevent of speech not the inability to find an audience for said speech.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:15 pm
Don’t know how much it matters, but the IP address confirms it’s the same Chris.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:16 pm
Agreed, but I think there are many ways to acknowledge and come to terms with evil that don’t seem to support, excuse, or even reward it.
Redditor
July 28, 2012 @ 10:17 pm
Censorship protects the rapists by keeping them hidden.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:17 pm
What name calling are you referring to?
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:18 pm
Interesting. Yeah, I’ve got no idea how to solve that one either, but thanks for this comment.
Redditor
July 28, 2012 @ 10:18 pm
Its disappointing that you can’t see that the backlash against Jim isn’t from rape apologists but free speech advocates.
Redditor
July 28, 2012 @ 10:19 pm
+1
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 10:19 pm
🙂
Bryan Mitchell
July 28, 2012 @ 10:19 pm
It’s easy to say you’re for free speech. But the fact that you made an ultimatum for it to be taken down means that you are in fact NOT for free speech. You should have just backed out without making the ultimatum. That would have been what someone who was for free speech would have done.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:20 pm
That’s an interesting point. You’re right of course that some of my own experiences aren’t things that would work for everyone, and the specific interactive Q&A of the Reddit thread isn’t something you’d get out of the essays and research and such.
Most of the things I saw in that thread were things I had come across in the literature, but the interaction … that’s a piece I need to think about, thanks.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:23 pm
Hi Charles,
I don’t actually expect the thread to be removed. I like the Oatmeal suggestion. At this point, I think doing an AMA or even setting foot in Reddit would likely result in a lot of nastiness, at least judging from the comments here, but I definitely appreciate the comment and suggestions. Thanks!
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:23 pm
Yeah, don’t worry about it. Some of the folks commenting are making some interesting points. Others are proving mine. It’s how the internet works.
CLICK MY NAME TO SEE SPACEDICKS
July 28, 2012 @ 10:26 pm
click my name
This view.
July 28, 2012 @ 10:28 pm
…and yet the actual world, the one you’re living in, seeing, smelling, hearing touching and tasting every day is telling you that she *hasn’t* gotten to that realisation ‘in other ways’.
Surely you are not so self-unaware that you can’t see the extraordinary hypocrisy of your position here?
That you would presume to know what will and won’t work for rape victims, whilst not being one yourself, speaks volumes as to how much this ‘stance’ of yours is truly about morals and how much is a pinch of arrogance mixed with a smattering of self-promotion.
As a self-proclaimed ‘champion of rape victims’, you sure are doing a fine job of capitalising on their misery whilst belittling their experiences for your own pageviews, aren’t you?
wat
July 28, 2012 @ 10:34 pm
Who the fuck is Jim C. Hines?
Angiers
July 28, 2012 @ 10:35 pm
I read this thread too, and I think you’re totally misrepresenting the nature of the thread.
A majority of the folks that responded said the actions were heinous, that the people belonged in jail.
My own impression as a woman and someone who has been sexually molested, I found it to be insightful and somewhat therapeutic, even when I found myself disgusted by some of the details.
It also reaffirmed something I had come to realize long ago about my own sexual molestation , that I wasn’t at fault. The guy that did it KNEW what he was doing and probably manipulated the situation so he use me like he did. I think maybe if we talked frankly about the methods sexual predators use on their prey we could counter these tactics by recognizing them for what they are.
Joel
July 28, 2012 @ 10:36 pm
“[T]he majority of the community has no problem excusing rape.”
In December 2011, Reddit had 34,879,881 unique visitors. The thread in question had ~11,000 comments — assuming the highly unlikely case that every comment was from a unique user, it’s some 0.03% of the user base (probably far less if growth in the last six months has kept pace with the growth indicated in the blog post I linked above) that even commented in that thread. Even if every one of those had been a post by a rapist or an apologist, the math does not bear out your assertion.
I never wished for Mr. Hines to reinstate his event — he can do as he pleases. But I want to make it clear, this has nothing to do with free speech, and everything to do with Mr. Hines, and plenty of others in echoing him, tarring millions of people with a very foul brush indeed over the actions of the tiniest fraction of a community. I trust you understand if I don’t like being called an apologist.
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 10:37 pm
> But using the decision to back out of the Q and A as a way to pressure the owners/moderators to censor the offending thread is.
Yet everyone, including Mr Hines, agrees that there is no realistic expectation of that happening, so I am having a hard time seeing the censoring here.
In any event, even if Reddit caved and deleted that subreddit, that would *still not be censorship*, because Reddit is a private, commercial site owned by the Newhouse family, and can publish and or not publish (or allow to be published or not published) anything it cares to for any reason. Everyone’s talked endlessly about how it is not a newspaper, and that’s true; thus, it has absolutely no duty to retain anything on its pages it does not want to.
Lina
July 28, 2012 @ 10:37 pm
Jim, stand your ground. You are a person that has made a perfectly reasonable decision to try and make a difference. Honestly, it is totally admirable and a lot of people stand behind you. It’s a shame that everyone else is making a lot of noise about how stupid this is. It isn’t – and you are doing the right thing.
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 10:38 pm
Yes, indeed. You may want to research the difference between a positive and negative right. It would be very educational in this situation.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 10:41 pm
Thanks. Moderated that one.
Rarian Rakista
July 28, 2012 @ 10:42 pm
Dehumanizing rapists exacerbates the risk that victims of rape will turn rapists into boogeymen and mythical monsters. Humanity is a chaotic mess of contradictions. For me that thread showed the very human nature of both rapists and their apologists, it was valuable for me not because I support either of them but before that thread I did not understand how very much they are part of humankind and not myth. Allowing rapists to reveal themselves as human, as one of us, only weakens them.
You as a man who makes myth are in a unique position to understand this.
Rachael
July 28, 2012 @ 10:46 pm
Hang tough, Jim.
Man, the number of people that don’t understand what does and does not constitute free speech is depressing the crap out of me.
Charles Stover
July 28, 2012 @ 10:48 pm
While some redditors may be pissed as a result of this article, it may still be worth doing. I think the last option would be easiest to pull off, since it wouldn’t require you prove that you donated. But reddit loves charities, and I’m sure a lot of subreddits and users would get behind it and participate.
Worth considering!
Bryce
July 28, 2012 @ 11:10 pm
Hi Jim,
As a person that uses Reddit on a regular basis, I’d like to explain just how it works, so that you can get a little bit better understanding of why the fantasy community at Reddit has absolutely nothing to do with the thousands of other communities on Reddit, other than being hosted there.
Reddit is a community of communities. Each separate “subreddit” as they’re called, is moderated by a different person. In this case, the subreddit where the various discussions pertaining to rape was posted is the AskReddit community. You can tell each different community by the web address. Askreddit will be at http://www.reddit.com/r/askreddit, while the fantasy community is in an entirely separate place at http://www.reddit.com/r/fantasy. I explain this just to show that on a website made of thousands of separate communities where there are 13 million visitors per day, it’s entirely possible to never even SEE a thread like that rape one. I certainly didn’t.
Now, on top of the communities being completely separate, users of reddit also have the opportunity to subscribe or unsubscribe from different communities. For instance, I am a member of /r/fantasy, but I unsubscribed from /r/atheism, since I wasn’t a fan of the content there. I’m a moderator of /r/bookgiveaways, but that only gives me the right to remove posts in /r/bookgiveaways. I can’t touch anything else on Reddit.
So, what I’m getting at is that Reddit works a lot like a bunch of websites that are loosly joined together by the same web url. Think back to geocities back in the day and you’ll have something approximating how Reddit works today. It’s unfair to punish the loyal fans of /r/Fantasy for something that happened on a completely different forum which they likely didn’t contribute to, and may not have even read (I know that I didn’t, with the various subscriptions that I have on Reddit). I hope this clears some things up, and I’m sorry for any hate that may have come your way as a result of this whole fiasco. You’ll note that the link to your website that sent me here, again, had nothing to do with /r/Fantasy. I believe it was sent here through a subreddit called /r/TrueReddit. If you need any more clarification, feel free to email myself of the moderator of /r/Fantasy, as I know him and he’s an excellent and knowledgeable guy. And please reconsider doing your Q&A, and I’m sure there are plenty of fantasy lovers at http://www.reddit.com/r/fantasy that would love to read it.
aDad
July 28, 2012 @ 11:11 pm
Let me start off by saying that I respect your choice, and I was truly horrified looking through that thread. However, I found it valuable, in ways I have not fully processed and which I have not seen posted here yet.
I am, by most measures, a privileged male. Maybe not 1%, but close. Most importantly, I have not had any family members or friends experience the trauma of assault – or, just as likely, just nobody close enough to me to have talked with me about it. As such, while I have never discounted the problem of sexual assault, it has always existed in my mind as an abstract concept.
My oldest daughter is now hitting puberty, and that thread had me thinking about concerns she will face that I – for obvious reasons – never had to. Like I said, I am still processing the distasteful psyches volunteered in that thread, but if that discussion, which I likely never would have encountered were it on a less general-purpose forum – helps me prepare my daughters for the world better, for me it will have been well worth it. (Actually, it already has been, as it has spurred me to seek advice from some of my female friends, one of whom decided to share her own tale with me, one years old but chillingly similar to some of the reddit posts.)
So, while you must follow your own conscience on these matters, I submit that some good things can result from the airing of such material. I am not going to pat these predators on the back for coming forward, but I am glad I am aware of them in a sense I was not before.
P.S. for those who say I should worry about teaching my sons, not my daughters, i do not have any.)
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 11:14 pm
That’s the only thing that makes it (attempted) censorship, yes.
Mind you, not participating in a reddit AMA because of this is still STUPID and HYPOCRITICAL for the other reasons I mentioned. But it wouldn’t be censorship.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 11:16 pm
Deleted the redundant comment for you.
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 11:20 pm
Why are you bringing legal entities in to this? It sounds like you don’t even know how reddit works.
The guy who runs /r/fantasy isn’t employed by reddit. Neither is the guy in /r/askreddit. Reddit simply owns a playground where two different groups have staked out areas to talk about stuff. The guy in /r/fantasy trying to get Mr. Hines to talk to them has no control over the guy in /r/askreddit that Mr. Hines thinks is bad, nor do they have any power to make reddit, who owns the playground, to kick them out.
Becky
July 28, 2012 @ 11:20 pm
This caused me to do one of those “caught by surprise” barks of laughter, so loud that it scared the dog out of a sound sleep.
If it’s any consolation on the loss of exposure from the original AMA, I might not have read that AMA, but I did find this link from Reddit’s front page. I hadn’t heard of you before (no offense), but your name is now firmly engrained in my mind. I respect you for standing up for your beliefs, and I fully intend on heading out this next week and picking up a book in support.
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 11:21 pm
Thanks but how about responding to the criticism I made elsewhere?
Dan O
July 28, 2012 @ 11:27 pm
Anya,
Calling him an ignorant jackass who needs to read more is ironic. Yes, many people use the term “free speech” w/r/t to the US too promiscuously, since, very technically, it refers to the first amendment, but generous debaters recognize that people who say “free speech” generally mean something wider and even more robust than that. They are talking about an ethic and practice of expression and inquiry that they think shouldn’t be hindered, legally or socially.
Since you recommend reading books as a cure for the diagnosed ignorance, you might take the time to read JS Mill’s On Liberty to see what I’m talking about.
Having said that, our host, obviously, can ban who he likes; I just happen to think that should be an absolute last resort when discussing contentious topics, since I think it is a matter of free speech in the wider sense that you ignore or are unaware of.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 11:28 pm
I’m not responding to everything. Mostly, I just don’t have time to write thoughtful/mindful responses to everyone’s questions and arguments. (And even writing some of the less-thoughtful comments I’ve posted takes time.) This has already taken up the majority of my time and energy today. Sorry.
Arch
July 28, 2012 @ 11:36 pm
I’m a daily redditor and while I certainly support your decision, I do hope you come away from this with an idea of the vastness of Reddit, and how easily one could find lots of things that interest you without seeing anything you don’t want. So, I’d like to recommend the following communities for you to stop in to sometime if you’re interested:
http://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens
http://www.reddit.com/r/frugalmalefashion
http://www.reddit.com/r/TomSwifties (as an author you should especially enjoy this)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Shipwrecks
http://www.reddit.com/r/historyporn (not actually porn)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Kindle
http://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinance
http://www.reddit.com/r/Muppets and so on, and so on, forever.
I’d also like to say to you, Mr. Hines, you have clearly dedicated a chunk of your day to this, and kept your cool underfire so good for you. To be honest, I am not familiar with your work, however I am impressed, so I’m headed for Amazon (because I also suddenly want to support their CEO.)
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