Why I Cancelled my Reddit Q&A
SERIOUS TRIGGER WARNING FOR RAPE
ETA: It’s almost midnight, and there are now close to 400 comments on this post. I’ve read them all, and I want to thank those of you who contributed to the conversation, on both sides. A decade ago, I would have been good for at least three more hours, but as one commenter pointed out, I’m old. I’m therefore going to declare this party over, thank you for coming, and kick you out of my house so I can go to bed. (I.e., I’m turning off the comments now.)
I know some people will take this as further proof that I’m a grandstanding, hypocritical, pro-censorship, freedom-hating, puppy-kicking, fascist poopyhead. That’s fine. But with this many comments, I think most of the arguments have been made, and most of the insults hurled.
Have a good night, all.
#
One of the events I had lined up for the launch of my new book was a Q&A with Reddit’s fantasy community. I did an “Ask Me Anything” session with them earlier this year and had a great time, so I was looking forward to another round. And then Twitter pointed me to an active Reddit discussion which starts with, “Reddit’s had a few threads about sexual assault victims, but are there any redditors from the other side of the story? What were your motivations? Do you regret it?”
Numerous rapists jumped in to tell their stories. I’m not going to link to them.
The comments and reactions were mixed. Some people were horrified. Others tried to reassure the rapists, to minimize what they had done, or to praise people’s courage in anonymously talking about how they committed rape. There’s plenty of victim blaming, and comments from the “Women lie about rape to attack men!!!” contingent.
Earlier today I emailed the person who was coordinating my Reddit event to tell him I will not be doing it unless that thread is removed. Given the nature of Reddit as an open, relatively unmoderated community, I don’t expect this to happen.
An announcement was already posted that I would be giving away a copy of Libriomancer on Reddit. I don’t think it’s fair to back out of that, so I’m planning to post an additional giveaway on my site and ask my contact to update that announcement with a link to the giveaway. (He has been incredibly cool and supportive of my decision, and agrees that the rape posts are offensive and should be dealt with by the moderators.)
There are aspects of this decision I need to talk about. A Jezebel post called Rapists Explain Themselves on Reddit and We Should Listen talks about the way this thread provides insight into the minds of rapists, and how it’s important to have this conversation in unprotected spaces like Reddit:
“Nothing will change if we discuss rape culture in a vacuum. Taking the discussion beyond that vacuum, however, means opening it up to a wider audience that isn’t necessarily sympathetic. Reddit may not be the best place for that, but it’s certainly a start — and that’s important. It’s in these less-protected, less-sacred spaces where the conversation is needed the most.”
Others have argued that it’s important to understand evil, to see where it comes from and recognize that these are seemingly-normal people who’ve committed horrible acts. One person said that reading the posts helped her to realize that there are men deliberately targeting women, and that her rape wasn’t an accident or a “misunderstanding,” but a deliberate choice by the rapist. In other words, it helped her see that it wasn’t her fault.
That really stuck with me. But for me personally, the harm far outweighs the good.
It is important that we understand why people rape. But there are other ways to find that insight. Books, essays, research, and more. I’ve spoken with rapists and batterers, and it did give me a better understanding as to how this crime happens. But the circumstances of those conversations were very different. They were controlled, with people who had been convicted and held accountable for their actions. People who, as far as I could tell, appeared to genuinely regret what they had done. In situations where excuses were not tolerated.
Some of my problems with the Reddit discussion are as follows.
-Who are these people? My guess is that most of these stories are true, but I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who is trolling for attention. In the overall scheme of things though, this is a minor complaint.
-No accountability or responsibility. In none of the stories I read were the rapists held accountable for their actions. Nor did they take responsibility. The pattern tended to be, “Here’s the story of how I raped this girl, and here are all of my excuses. I got away with it, but I feel really bad now of course, so give me cookies!”
-Some of the posts are essentially How-To guides for rapists. Rape is not an accident. It’s not a misunderstanding. Predators practice their technique. They learn how best to target and overpower their victims. And now we have a thread from experienced rapists sharing their successful techniques.
-Rape is a crime of sex and power. I read some of these stories, and I see rapists getting off on the chance to relive their crime. The sexual aspect comes from the graphic descriptions of what they did, and the power comes from the reactions of the commenters. The dynamic I’m seeing here is one that allows a number of rapists to recapture the rush of their crimes.
-The Hurt Outweighs the Good. I won’t deny that some people have taken positive things from all this, but I believe the harm far outweighs that good.
#
I know Reddit is not a single unified group, any more than Twitter or LiveJournal or Facebook. My guess is that very few members of the Reddit Fantasy group have any idea what’s happening in the rapist thread, and that many or most of them would be horrified. I feel like I’m punishing innocent people for actions they had nothing to do with, and I don’t like that.
I’m also a big believer in freedom of speech. These people have the right to tell their stories. But that right to speech doesn’t obligate one of the largest sites on the Internet to provide a platform for their speech. Reddit, as I understand it, prides itself on a relative lack of moderation and an “anything goes” approach. To quote one member, “It allows any voice to be heard no matter how uneducated, insensitive or outright wrong.”
I don’t think people should be silenced for lack of education, for tone, or for having a different opinion than me. And I’m not going to tell Reddit how to run their sites or communities. Nor am I going to try to say everyone who chooses to stay with Reddit is a bad person.
But I’ve made the choice to walk away, both for myself, and for the hope that it sends a message to those with the ability to make a change at Reddit.
Disappointed
July 28, 2012 @ 4:28 pm
It’s pretty amazing that this site offers a chance to find out the perspective of even our pariahs. I didn’t see the thread in question and can’t judge whether it lived up to its potential, but it seems like a rare opportunity to look into the criminal mind. It’s a shame Jim has a problem with that.
Joris M
July 28, 2012 @ 4:28 pm
Well done. I fully understand your position, and admire that you take it.
Anya
July 28, 2012 @ 4:28 pm
Another ignorant jackass talking about free speech. The Right to Free Speech (First Amendment) ONLY says that the government can’t hinder your right to free speech. It says exactly nothing about your fellow civilians. The owner of a website can do whatever he wants. Read a book. Graduate high school. These things will help you, I promise.
joselitus_maximus
July 28, 2012 @ 4:31 pm
there ya go with your gang mentality.
Passerby
July 28, 2012 @ 4:31 pm
People say lots of hateful stuff on Facebook and Twitter too. Why are you still subscribed to those?
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 4:32 pm
I’m sure there are some people telling the truth, but there are also people who are lying to make others angry. The problem is, you can’t tell who is who.
Sam
July 28, 2012 @ 4:32 pm
Jim, in February 2003 Dan Rather held an interview with Saddam Hussein. Should I boycott CBS because I don’t like Saddam Hussein?
Freespeech
July 28, 2012 @ 4:33 pm
Of course he can, but if he claims to be for free speech, banning would go contradictory to his claim.
I can also tell from reading this that the author has no idea how Reddit works. This story is very nit picky. Reddit does a lot of good for a lot of people on a daily basis. Then one bad post gets frontpaged and some nobody author gets butthurt about it and doesnt want to do an AMA? Thats probably fine with most people, your AMA probably wasnt going to be that popular anyway, and a lot of people on Reddit are sick of people like you treating AMAs like they are some talk show where you can just plug your new book or whatever.
TL;DR: Fuck you, no one was going to read your book or AMA anyway.
Freespeech
July 28, 2012 @ 4:34 pm
Yeah but when someone claims to be for free speech and then censor people, it makes them a hypocrite. This has nothing to do with the government.
Clearly graduating high school didnt help YOU figure many things out if I had to explain that one to you.
Law Professor
July 28, 2012 @ 4:35 pm
Read yourself a book.
I’m not trying to sue him for violating my free speech, I’m criticizing his values in an extra-legal capacity.
Free speech is a value, not just a part of our law. Jim does not share it with me.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 4:36 pm
gang?
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 4:36 pm
I think a better solution is that more women need to be ON Reddit to make our voices heard. It’ll balance out the crowd and change the tone of discussion. I honestly believe this is a better idea, than abstaining from it.
Christpohe
July 28, 2012 @ 4:36 pm
Of course, by the logic displayed here, you are censoring Mr Hines by refusing to read his books. How dare you deny Mr Hines his free speech rights because of something he said!
joselitus_maximus
July 28, 2012 @ 4:36 pm
“…it disgusted and horrified me…”
That’s why you are here “LOLing” at the other people who were horrified.
Yeah, right…
I call BS.
Freespeech
July 28, 2012 @ 4:36 pm
The fact that you and everyone else commenting here is referring to Reddit as a single entity with one set of opinions shows me you know nothing about Reddit at all.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 4:37 pm
Exactly. Law has nothing to do with it. Anya is just making herself look ignorant with her misrepresentation of the situation.
Jen
July 28, 2012 @ 4:38 pm
I commend you for sticking by your morals. I also found the thread fascinating, but in a morbid sort of way. I’ve been a member for a little over one year and for anyone who frequents the site they will be quick to realize there is a common trend once rape is mentioned. Most redditors will micro analyze ever aspect and detail in an attempt to argue that the situation might not really qualify as being rape. This leads to the strong majority opinion that most rapes are just false claims and that the victim is horrible for even considering pressing charges (and don’t even pretend that not all of reddit isn’t like that, the upvote/downvote system is a clear indicator of what the majority belief is and even a slight stray from the hivemind will completely bury your comment).
Back to the thread, what really disturbed me was how most of the perpetrators didn’t even seem to understand that what they did was rape and is completely reprehensible. They just made excuses about how they were drunk and/or horny and how even though what they did was wrong it wasn’t actually their fault because X. And then the responses were even worse. People commenting about how much it must have sucked for them and sympathizing with these rapist basically treating them like they were the true victims in the situation. I hadn’t even thought about how most of the submitters never mentioned being convicted or even arrested but it certainly is unsettling.
Not wanting to associate with all that is courageous and and admirable. You have just as much right to freedom of speech as they do and them getting angry about you not doing your AMA proves that they don’t support the very thing they are harking about when it goes against their beliefs.
Redditor
July 28, 2012 @ 4:39 pm
Well, Stay off of our reddit, you fucking censor.
Jen
July 28, 2012 @ 4:44 pm
It doesn’t matter if even all of those submissions were made up, the (ridiculously highly upvoted) responding comments showing pity and supporting them is enough reason to want to disassociate oneself from reddit. I’m not saying all the responses should have been scornful but commending and telling them it wasn’t their fault is shows the site’s true mentality.
Name
July 28, 2012 @ 4:50 pm
I’m not a reader of your work and I do use Reddit daily. I understand your decision and support it, but I would respect you more if you had simply said, I don’t agree with Redit for these reasons and shall not participate in any form. But you added the caveat about participating if the offending thread was removed. Does removing the thread change that it happened? No, it doesn’t. Does removing that thread prevent another thread about similar topics from appearing? No, it doesn’t. If you truly have a problem with the mindset you observed, why not fully commit to your stance and offer no recompense?
If someone says something to offend you so deeply as to make you disassociate with them, why come back just because they say they’re sorry for saying it? They still hold the values you took offense to.
Ribby
July 28, 2012 @ 4:51 pm
tl;dr: In a community of Millions, I didn’t like some of them. Grow up jim.
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 4:51 pm
I think honestly, as a former assault victim? Maybe I’m just stronger than that or something, but it doesn’t bother me. Do I think those people are idiots? Yep. Do I think they’re pandering? Yeah. But I guarantee you, it’s nothing to get too upset over. Why? Because half of them don’t really mean what they say. To me, providing some space between yourself and what you read and see online, is one of the best ways to deal with the internet in general.
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 4:54 pm
It’s really sad, most people who commit crimes do tend to see themselves as victims.
I’m a pedestrian, and sometimes when I cross the street, someone will not pay attention to the red light. In the case of a person who almost hits me, I see a very familiar look on their face. I call it the “not me” face. Not me! It can’t happen to ME! Why? They’re “them”, they’re normal, they’re the good guy. Good guys don’t run people over or kill them, or rape people either. Voila, victim mentality.
Freespeech
July 28, 2012 @ 4:55 pm
No one is butthurt about this being canceled. This would probably be the least read AMA Ive seen on Reddit.
Ribby
July 28, 2012 @ 4:55 pm
You dislike some of the content on a site and decide to abstain completely? That’s like saying you don’t like some of the people at work, so you’re not going.
Rapist
July 28, 2012 @ 4:56 pm
I will rape you
random name
July 28, 2012 @ 4:59 pm
ITT: an author that doesn’t understand sarcasm.
Freespeech
July 28, 2012 @ 5:01 pm
Hes not doing anything of that sort. Hes here calling the author a hypocrite, which he is.
I would like to see someone show me another place where a bunch of rapists would just come out and tell people the story of how they raped someone. The author is not concerned with understanding and fixing the mind of these people at all, as he claims to be. Thats the 2nd act of hypocrisy Ive seen in the 10 mins Ive been here. He claims that there are other ways to look into the mind of rapists, so we would like to be shown these ways that he refers to.
Show me another place where rapists would willingly come out and show us their thought processes, where they dont feel like they are being set up to go to jail as soon as the story is over. Dont worry, Ill wait.
So far the author claims to be for free speech but demonstrates otherwise, and claims to be for learning about the criminal mind in order to fix the problem, but also demonstrates otherwise.
Good thing your a fiction writer because you apparently struggle with a lot of the concepts the real world has to offer.
wellhithereguys
July 28, 2012 @ 5:05 pm
It makes me extremely happy to see that people take notice of these deplorable types of people and discussions and doesn’t think “you’re brave for posting this have some internet cookies” and say it’s all okay. Rapists should give us their “insight into their minds” from behind bars. These people are still out there, and ready and willing to hurt more people. It’s disgusting to let them tell everyone how they feel and give them internet cookies for “being honest”. Anything that makes these people feel anything other than shame and disgust for their actions is not a good thing.
Freespeech
July 28, 2012 @ 5:06 pm
So you think every single person out of the millions that use Reddit endorses rape? Your incredibly ignorant to how the internet works, and you should probably shut your computer off. Im surprised you were able to find this site, given the level of competence you have just demonstrated.
BTW just because you have a blog your husband reads doesnt make you a ‘writer’.
Riley
July 28, 2012 @ 5:08 pm
I’m sorry, I don’t think I understand. Reddit isn’t one entity that controls what’s frontpaged like a newspaper. Not one person really decides what’s discussed on the site. It’s one of the largest and most visited websites daily. It could be possible that the group of people you would’ve talked to could be completely different than the ones in the thread you mentioned. I think you were wrong to back out or even ask for the post to be taken down. In a way you punished the community more than you helped it.
Cettin
July 28, 2012 @ 5:09 pm
Thank you. I watched Reddit over the last few years go from “kind of gross, but they’re just trolls at the bottom of the page” to an absolutely unreadable cesspit of racism and misogyny. I’d laugh at all the butthurt redditora in the thread do their usual song and dance of “I’m standing up for FREE SPEECH! Wait, how dare you take a stand for your beliefs?”, but at this point it’s just sad. :\
DIAF
July 28, 2012 @ 5:09 pm
“I’m not trying to…”
Do I smell a sock puppet? ‘Cause I think I just found a sock puppet.
If you were abused on acid as a child, that’s one thing, but don’t take it out on everyone else, will you?
AR
July 28, 2012 @ 5:13 pm
*tears of impotent rage*
AR
July 28, 2012 @ 5:15 pm
Well, yeah. If I worked with even a single rapist or rape-apologist, I probably wouldn’t show up either.
D
July 28, 2012 @ 5:17 pm
>you should probably shut your computer off
HURR WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SPOIL HER FREE SPEACHES?!
(Yes, that is how stupid you sound.)
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 5:17 pm
Suppose I am interviewing for a job, in a state with no protection for sexual orientation. Everything goes great, until at some point one random employee doing the interviewing says, “You know, I really don’t like gay people working here, so I’m glad you’re married to a woman.”
Based on this, I decline the job. Have I censored that employee?
Of course not. The idea is absurd. He can keep doing what he wants; I just decline to be a part of it.
Reasonable people can debate if they would have done the same thing in Mr Hines’ position. But to accuse Mr Hines of censoring anyone is nonsense. Free speech does not mean “no one is allowed to make any judgments or take any personal action whatsoever because of what someone said.”
D
July 28, 2012 @ 5:18 pm
Are you 10
JBoone
July 28, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
What a douche you are. Like most others, I have never heard of you, nor care about an attempted AMA by you. But from what I can tell, you are a total douche trying to get your “white knight” on to push traffic to your site. You taking a “stand”, if we can call it that, is completely pointless and utterly useless. You don’t like that some people are rapists, so you won’t post on a web site. Yea, makes sense. (/s) And from reading some of your responses on here, you seem like a completely immature asshole. You act like your doing something noble, but deep down, you know you’re not. In that little head of yours, I know you thought about the “benefits” doing something like this might have. Such as getting to pretend you stand for such noble a cause. If doing this prevents even one half of one rape, I will eat my shoe. I have no respect for you at all.
Nark
July 28, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
Heather, I think it’s important to note that there are regular threads on AskReddit that discuss rape from all different perspectives: the victim, a friend, a loved one, etc. If you don’t believe me:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/search?q=rape+victim&sort=top&restrict_sr=on
It’s not as though there is no voice for a victim of rape. Victims of rape come to AskReddit for anonymous advice sometimes and I feel that the community as a whole benefits from being able to participate and help in such discussions.
My point is that you are not silencing rape victims by having a discussion that is for rapists and alleged rapists to come forward. It would be a similar argument to say that if someone creates a thread asking people who prefer movies over television why they feel that way, then that thread silences the voices of those who prefer television over movies. It isn’t that those people are being silenced; it’s purely that their perspectives on the issue was not the point of creating the thread.
Solomon
July 28, 2012 @ 5:25 pm
Brutal but true. Even as an every day user, I did not know about either the AMA or the er… Rape-a-thon talk. It’s easy to censure a group of people based on an anecdotal case example and it’s not worth trying to get through on this one… in my anecdotal experiences, the folks who are likely to discuss sexual assault issues tend to be those who are emotionally compromised by doing so. God knows I don’t give a shit about yet another C-lister plugging in a space I wouldn’t look at anyway…
Hilarious though… can’t get folks to talk about: fair-trade, the diamond trade, manufacturing practices, ethnic genocides, the staggering state of the world slave market, or the sub-subsistence of easily half of the world’s population but talk about rape in the developed world and we all become perfect martyrs to the worthy cause of being a hero in our own narrative. How Noble! How Brave you must be! What a difficult cause to get behind…
speak freely
July 28, 2012 @ 5:26 pm
Could not agree more. OP is clueless.
a different chris
July 28, 2012 @ 5:32 pm
why are there so many
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 5:33 pm
Someone once sent me spam, so I stopped using email. I stand up for my values, just like you!
Ashley F. Miller
July 28, 2012 @ 5:35 pm
Well, for those that are disappointed, it’s not like you don’t answer questions in the comments of your own blog. A mixed blessing that your presence is something people are sad to lose, just a testament to the fact that people recognize your awesomeness 🙂
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 5:37 pm
Really? Because he never answered my questions in his own blog.
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 5:42 pm
Declining the job offer is one thing. What Jim did the equivalent of agreeing to do the job, and then saying, “Fire that employee, or I quit.” And yes, that would be censorship.
But it’s worse than that. The employee in question doesn’t even work at the same company as Jim; he works in a different company that’s owned by the same parent corporation. And he wasn’t even talking to Jim; he was talking about something else.
This is like an author refusing to be interviewed on ABC because Disney owns ABC and (at the time) also owned Miramax and made a movie said author found objectionable.
speek freely
July 28, 2012 @ 5:43 pm
I’m not sure a ten year old would have such thoughts
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 5:50 pm
Someone in the comments said something offensive. I will not continue to make comments unless that other comment is removed.
Max
July 28, 2012 @ 5:51 pm
Let me preface this by saying that I am very far from being a rape apologist or anything ridiculous like that. I just think that you’re going to punish your fans for something that they had nothing to do with, because they use the same site as some (alleged) rapists. That’s stupid, are you going to cease to promote yourself on Facebook or interact with your fans on there because there are sick people that use that medium of communication too?
I have no idea who you are or what I’d be missing from another IAMA, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Take care.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 5:52 pm
One of your commenters made a comment, and now I blame your website for that comment. Disgusting!
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 5:54 pm
Promise?
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 5:56 pm
> This is like an author refusing to be interviewed on ABC because Disney owns ABC and (at the time) also owned Miramax and made a movie said author found objectionable.
And that would be entirely and completely within the author’s rights, and not be censorship in the least. In what imaginable way would that be censorship?
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 5:57 pm
REMOVE THAT COMMENT OR I WILL STOP COMMENTING! I’M SERIOUS!
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 5:59 pm
I know I promised to comment, but I won’t comment, unless another comment is removed. I respect the concept of freedom of speech, and the free flow of legal ideas/information, except now, because I don’t like it.
Jen
July 28, 2012 @ 6:07 pm
That’s great and all that it doesn’t bother you but that’s just your opinion and Jim has the right to voice his. You just seem to want to pretend that most of the things said in that thread was just people purposely being awful when we know that is not the case when it comes to most of reddit. Again, most of the crap supporting those rapist was upvoted extremely highly. You’re telling me hundreds of those people upvoting those comments didn’t really mean it and were just being “edgy”?
David
July 28, 2012 @ 6:08 pm
I would much prefer to see the world as it truly is than to live in a fantasy never acknowledging evil. We will never accomplish meaningful change if we can’t come to terms with reality
Jen
July 28, 2012 @ 6:10 pm
Did CBS agree with Hussein’s ways and telling him that what he did wasn’t his fault? Seriously, purposely being obtuse isn’t going to help your case in anyway.
nimh
July 28, 2012 @ 6:15 pm
But he’s not just “getting mad” at the repulsive comments he found. If that was all he wanted to do, he could have just posted his own disapproval of those comments in the Reddit thread itself, or brought it up on his Reddit Q&A, or written a post here about how he disapproved of the thread. He went beyond that, and told Reddit that he would withdraw his own promised participation on the site unless they removed the offending thread.
It does seem like he is confused or of two minds about what he wants to achieve, or alternatively just doesn’t quite want to own up to it. Either way, there is some politician talk in his conclusion. First he says, “I’m not going to tell Reddit how to run their sites or communities.” But then he says, “I’ve made the choice to walk away, both for myself, and for the hope that it sends a message to those with the ability to make a change at Reddit.” Emphasis added. So he doesn’t want to tell Reddit owners/moderators what to do, but he hopes that his move will convince him to do something. He doesn’t want to tell Reddit owners/moderators what to censor or not, but he hopes that his move will convince Reddit owners/moderators to censor this thread. OK.
Christophe
July 28, 2012 @ 6:27 pm
And just to be clear, this “Reddit is a giant amorphous blob and NO ONE IS IN CONTROL” is nonsense. It’s a commercial website owned by Advance Publications, one of the largest media companies in the United States. They’ve made a business decision not to moderate or edit it, but that’s all it is; Reddit is not some magical wellspring of Free Speech.
Jobly Tarkus
July 28, 2012 @ 6:29 pm
It’s nice to see you sort of willing to own up to errors but you’re equivocations are losing you intellectual credibility here.
“I will not X unless Y” is an ultimatum. It’s pretty simple. You demanded censorship in exchange for participation. What’s the other way of looking at this you are referring to?
It seems to me you are in no way an advocate of free speech in any way that I’m familiar with. In fact your actions are positioning you firmly against it.
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 6:31 pm
If it makes you feel better that this is my motive, then I don’t think I can convince you otherwise. But let me share another example with you of another website–Society6.
Now, Society6 is a website that is paired with some pretty prestigious art organizations, like Threadless and Milk Made. These places host very nice-looking art, that you can not only sell your work on, but get a lot of exposure that way. When you post work, people can upvote it there too. The most upvoted and visited works, get a spot on the front page, something coveted by many users.
One day, I visited Society6 and saw a picture of Mitt Romney, with the word “n****r” written across his eyes (actually spelled out, I’m just censoring it here). It made me upset to see that smack on the front page, so that it welcomed me every time I clicked on the site. What was worse? People were UPVOTING it. They upvoted and commented on how “edgy” it was. And they were using, supposedly, their real names in conjunction with their account to support that crap.
It’s unbelievable what people will upvote sometimes, right? Yeah. It is. Especially when those users left comments like, “Great work!” And “You’re such a great artist!”
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 6:34 pm
> And that would be entirely and completely within the author’s rights, and not be censorship in the least.
It would be entirely within his rights, but not at all reasonable. It would also be hypocritical. Is Mr. Hines refusing to associate with any professional SF writing organization considering they’ve included the likes of Orson Scott Card and Marion Zimmer Bradley? Of course not. His sanctimoniousness only goes so far; he has a career to consider.
> In what imaginable way would that be censorship?
I left that part of the analogy out because I thought it was obvious. It’s censorship because he didn’t simply refuse to do the interview; he said, “ABC, get Disney to censor all copies of that film and I’ll do the interview.”
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 6:36 pm
But /r/fantasy isn’t in control of /r/askreddit, any more than ABC News controlled the content of Miramax. ABC News doesn’t even control all the content of ABC, let alone a different division of its parent company. (Note: Disney no longer owns Miramax.)
Roland Jones
July 28, 2012 @ 6:37 pm
Blatantly untrue. Not only was there real child porn, there were sections where they asked underage users to provide them with material, and told the other users to not speak with them so that they didn’t “scare them off”.
Or, you could just read the article Jim linked to, since, you know, it actually links to at least one news article over real child porn on Reddit.
Fred Fnord
July 28, 2012 @ 6:39 pm
How about this: the next time you have a party, how about I go visit your house and spend the entire evening screaming abuse at your guests? (And at you, of course… wouldn’t want anyone to feel left out.)
And then when you kick me out I can exclaim, “I KNEW YOU WEREN’T REALLY FOR FREE SPEECH! YOU’RE TRYING TO SILENCE ME!!! THEREFORE YOU’RE A HYPOCRITE!”
If you think that it’s hypocritical to say ‘go have your free speech somewhere else’, then yes, I’m afraid that that does make you dumb.
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:40 pm
A) Bullshit. Belief in a legal right to free speech does not in any way obligate one to personally host any kind of speech.
B) It’s not “one bad post”, it is one very incredibly awful and damaging thread that is part of a pattern of tolerating awful and damaging things in general on Reddit. There is a pervasive culture of misogyny and bigotry on the site, which has been demonstrated time and again. This is not an isolated incident.
Jobly Tarkus
July 28, 2012 @ 6:42 pm
Wow Jim. You clearly need to read up on these philosophical issues before making hay about them. You seem to have not even worked through the most rudimentary arguments for and against differing forms of free speech an censorship.
How to deal with illegal activity has little or nothing to do with the free speech issues you’ve brought up. The issues around the non-illegal posting of legal pictures of young people are complex. No one was confused about what to do about illegal activity. You call the police.
Your failure to be able to separate these leads me to believe you have not considered this issue very seriously past your immediate emotional reactions to what you do and don’t like.
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:42 pm
It’s not just one thread, and it’s a hell of a lot worse than distasteful. It is a particularly awful iteration of a culture of misogyny that is broadly apparent on the site.
Peter
July 28, 2012 @ 6:42 pm
The difference in your situation being that everyone wants you to stop commenting.
spacedicks
July 28, 2012 @ 6:43 pm
she clearly has never visited spacedicks.. otherwise we endorse a lot of weird
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:47 pm
No, it’s saying that a company (Reddit is a for-profit company, part of Conde-Nast) does things you don’t like, therefor you will not support it by giving it your time and energy. It’s a boycott.
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:48 pm
It’s not just one thread. It is part of a pervasive culture of misogyny, demonstrated over and over again.
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:51 pm
Reddit is a single company, one which permits this behavior. Why should Mr. Hines provide that company with content and view when the company does things he thinks are awful?
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:57 pm
She has grudgewank against me because I reblogged something once upon a time that called her a racist because she said something racist. She threatened to sue me over it, and made a series of posts on her own blog calling me all sorts of nasty things, and then took them down again. You can google “Nancy McClernan is a racist” for more.
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 6:59 pm
OK. Is “twit” the problem?
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 7:00 pm
…wow, the irony.
MadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 7:01 pm
And, oddly, people get to choose to disassociate themselves from pigs with whom they are voluntarily in contact.
reader
July 28, 2012 @ 7:02 pm
While I understand the resentment to being grouped together with alleged rapists on some board I never go to. I’m on reddit just for r/fantasy, and r/books. I don’t think resorting to name calling is helpful at all. I find it very distasteful and it does nothing to further a discussion.
Shayne O
July 28, 2012 @ 7:07 pm
“A few users” trading CP?
Dude, the /r/jailbait reddit was listed on the google index page 1 of reddit. It wasnt just publically traded, but the subreddit was listed on reddits google sitemap so google could find it. That was almost certainly a decision by someone at Reddit HQ.
Lazlo Toth
July 28, 2012 @ 7:10 pm
It’s his blog. If I came to your front porch and started screaming my opinion of you at the top of my lungs, are you a hypocrite if you tell me it’s your property and you wish I would leave? Jim is in no way whatsoever abridging your free speech rights — if you don’t like what he has to say, there are literally hundreds of thousands of other places on the Internet you can go say it. If Jim were trying to stop you from speaking there, in public forums, you would have a legitimate complaint. But he isn’t, and you don’t.
Woodman
July 28, 2012 @ 7:12 pm
Well said. I understand Hines’ mindset, but I don’t agree with it. This is probably the best reason I’ve read in these comments so far.
Lazlo Toth
July 28, 2012 @ 7:12 pm
Heh, great minds think alike. I’ll bet now they call us sock puppets. 🙂 But it’s such an obvious comparison, I can’t believe they didn’t think about it — if they are indeed sincere about giving a damn about free speech, and aren’t just in a snit because Jim’s daring to speak ill of the Reddit Tribes.
Woodman
July 28, 2012 @ 7:14 pm
Dude, you really need to stop. Now you’re just being immature. I was respectful of your opinions before, but after seeing this behavior, you’ve lost me.
SisterCoyote
July 28, 2012 @ 7:14 pm
By using Reddit as a platform to discuss his works, he would be tacitly implying that he’s okay with their policies – including the “Yeah, it’s okay to high-five each other over heinous crimes against other human beings” policy.
You folks can keep whining about how this is punishing his fans (because there are no other platforms on the internet in which authors can ask questions, and authors are obviously required to do things like this, because their fans deserve nothing less than their total devotion), and you can keep whining about censorship (because telling rape apologists to shut up is exactly like silencing people to enforce propaganda), and claiming he’s losing fans over this, but for the record, I was going back and forth on whether or not to hunt down and buy the rest of the fairy-tales verse books (I have limited book-buying-budgets, and even though they’re excellent books, they were not at the top of my priority list), and this pretty much pushed me over the line to yes!
And I’m going to link to this post everywhere I know, with a sincere, detailed, and heartfelt endorsement of his excellent fantasy series, and ask others to do the same. And I’d put good money down that People Who Want To Read Books By Decent Human Beings outnumber rape apologists, by a lot.
hod
July 28, 2012 @ 7:25 pm
Hi, as a man who has been a victim of sexual abuse I found that thread invaluably theraputic. I am not someone who would ordinarily subject myself to a dedecated forum about rape, however, when it came up in a thread on a familiar website, I read some stories and it got me thinking about my experience and from diffrent perspectives (as one among millions/ the viewpoint of many diffrent abusers from serial to the arguably accidental.) Please be careful about feeling outrage on others behalf, lest your very aware, but confused thinking on the topic starts to look like self publicity. Thank you for caring about other humans tho.
Serei
July 28, 2012 @ 7:25 pm
I feel like your confusion stems from the fact that free speech, in addition to being a legal concept, is also an ethical concept.
This is because most legal concepts are based on ethical concepts. Take the example of murder: Only certain types of killing are illegal. Others are perfectly legal (for instance, the government will even pay you to do it in Iraq /rimshot). But there’s still the closely-related ethical concept of pacifism. It’d be ridiculous to get mad at a pacifist for being against legal forms of killing.
It’s the same idea with free speech. Only certain types of censorship are banned by the Constitution – namely, when it’s done by the government. Other types of censorship are perfectly legal. Just like many people believe there are good reasons to kill someone, many people believe there are good reasons to censor someone. But there’s the closely-related ethical concept of free speech, and it’d be ridiculous to get mad at a free speech advocate for being against legal forms of censorship.
Woodman
July 28, 2012 @ 7:26 pm
I both agree and disagree with you, Mr. Hines. I don’t think the thread should be taken down, though I do feel that it should never have been posted in the first place.
Nevertheless, I love the idea that there IS a place with mass appeal and enough safety to engage in such talk. The problem isn’t the thread itself though, it’s the class of people who were drawn to it. Not necessarily the rapists, but the sympathizers who may have vindicated the rapists, and THAT is where Reddit begins to falter.
It’s been said from some of the Reddit “Old-timers” who have been there for years that the integrity and quality of the site has plummeted in recent years. The “Endless September,” they call it. A site with such popularity is bound to attract people from all walks of life: teens, the uneducated, the socially incompetent, the immature, people who have done horrible things, victims, and perpetrators alike. And there are plenty from my generation that are just jaded and cynical and haven’t really experienced life. Ergot, threads such as the rape one are bound to be flooded with all these undesirable mindsets.
The website, it’s moderation, it’s infrastructure, etc. isn’t the problem. It’s the class of people that visit it. I’m not sure how you would remedy that. But, as with everything else in life, sometimes you tolerate the demons for the sake of an angel.
k
July 28, 2012 @ 7:31 pm
So much for free speech, eh, Mr. Hines?
Peter
July 28, 2012 @ 7:39 pm
The percentage of redditors engaged in that discussion is probably close to .01% of the regular posters on Reddit. I’m sorry Jim, but this is nothing but a glorious overreaction. Chik Fil A has a bigot for CEO but that doesn’t mean I have to stop using roads because people use roads to get to Chik Fil A.
sdbear
July 28, 2012 @ 7:45 pm
I also did a AMA on Reddit and it was really a high point of my otherwise drab and dreary life. It does appear, however, that you are taking a slightly narrow view of just what Reddit, itself, is. From here Reddit seems to be something like a city with lots of amazing neighborhoods that can enrich the mind and spirit. But, like any large city, there are also neighborhoods that one should
It is true that it is sometimes better to light a small candle then it is to curse the darkness.
Good luck. I will be interested to see how you develop as a writer and thinker.
Be kind to yourself.
sdbear
Peter Chastain
July 28, 2012 @ 7:46 pm
This. How long and what degree of exposure did it take until Reddit removed the ‘lolita’ forums? This is how change begins.
sdbear
July 28, 2012 @ 7:48 pm
Should read “there are neighborhood that one should not walk alone in, especially at night”
lokee73
July 28, 2012 @ 8:03 pm
You said yourself that you have interviewed rapists. How many people really have the opportunity to do that? This may have been the only chance for a person to get specific answers to questions they may have. I personally came to terms with my rape through 4 years of hard therapy. Others may need this for their catharsis.
Aside from all that, freedom of speech means protecting that which you may not agree with.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 8:08 pm
So brave.
Tim
July 28, 2012 @ 8:09 pm
I’m still not sure which side of this debate I come down on, but Simon raises a fantastically intriguing point which you entirely failed to respond to. Given the equally offensive content sold by Amazon and B&N, will you also be withdrawing your material from their sites? If not, why the different standard?
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 8:21 pm
How come I can’t downvote anything here?
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 8:22 pm
By downvote, I mean rape.
Tim
July 28, 2012 @ 8:26 pm
AskReddit helped me deal with one of the most difficult situations in my life. I still talk to people I met in that thread and have received incredible support from the AR community. Generalizing and judging us all by things that were said in one question is insulting and offensive in so many ways. I haven’t read your books, I’m not a fan, I don’t care whether you do an AMA. I do have to speak up when a website that has been so supportive of me is slammed by some dude who only read one part of it, though.
ArchangelleChris
July 28, 2012 @ 8:30 pm
Great post, Jimbo!
But your trigger warning wasn’t in a big enough font and now I’ve got a case of the sadsies. 🙁