Odyssey Con, Frenkel, and Harassment
Odyssey Con is a Madison, Wisconsin convention scheduled to take place later this month. I want to share two tidbits from their website.
From their harassment policy:
“It is the intention of Odyssey Con to create a safe, friendly, welcoming environment…”
From their Who is Odyssey Con? page:
James Frenkel, Guest Liaison
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I’ve talked about Frenkel on the blog before.
- How to Report Sexual Harassment, by Elise Matthesen
- WisCon, Harassment, and Rehabilitation (A follow-up to the previous link, about the 2013 incident)
- A discussion with a different victim of Frenkel’s harassment prompted a post in 2010 about Reporting Sexual Harassment in SF/F
As have others.
- Mary Robinette Kowal talks about fielding another report of harassment by Frenkel
- Cherie Priest: “[W]hen Tor first brought me on board back in 2002, my fellow writers quietly warned me about him.”
- “[B]ack in 2009 when this picture of Frenkel staring at my breasts was taken it was in many ways just one of those things…” -Mikki Kendall
As is the nature of these things, there’s a lot more that isn’t written about publicly. I’ve spoken with other people harassed by Frenkel who chose not to post about it online, or to file complaints. Given the way we tend to treat victims of harassment and assault — demanding details and proof, blaming them, excusing the harassment, telling them why they’re wrong or overreacting, and so on — I can’t and won’t blame anyone for making that choice.
Even so, knowledge of Frenkel’s history is widespread in the SF/F field. He lost his job with Tor Books shortly after the 2013 incident. He was banned for life from Wiscon. Hell, some of this stuff is on his freaking Wikipedia page.
In other words, there’s no way Odyssey Con was unaware of this history. But they still chose to allow Frenkel to serve as their Guest Liaison.
That’s their right. It’s their convention, and if they want to put a known repeat harasser on staff, they can do so. But that choice has consequences. Consequences like their Guest of Honor withdrawing from the convention. Or having other guests and companies withdraw because the con prioritized a harasser over the safety of their guests.
ETA: Or then having another guest of honor withdraw…
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I haven’t seen a public response from the convention yet, but I’m bracing myself for the typical refrain:
“But he’s such a nice guy. I never saw him harass anyone!”
He was a nice guy to me, too. He was genuinely kind and supportive when I was a nobody starting out in this business, and I hated learning about this other side of him. But the fact that he was nice to me doesn’t mean he’s nice to everyone. Harassers can be quite charming, and they learn to isolate their victims.
It would be like saying, “But Hannibal Lecter never tried to eat me, so how can you say he’s a cannibal?”
“He has a long history with the convention.”
Yes…he also has a long history of harassing women. What’s your point?
ETA: Called it! From the Odyssey Con program chair:
I have been personally acquainted with both Richard and Jim for many years, and, as program chair, I am 100% certain that they will both conduct themselves in responsible and appropriate fashions. Both Jim and Richard have made valuable contributions to Odyssey Con for years and I expect that they will, given the opportunity, continue to do so for years to come.
“He hasn’t done anything wrong since Wiscon 2013. Doesn’t he deserve another chance?”
Some things aren’t mine to share, but I question the assumption behind that statement. As for deserving another chance…personally, I think it depends. What work has he done to try to earn another chance? I do believe that everyone deserves the chance to learn and grow…but not at the expense of their victims. In other words, why is giving Frenkel yet another chance more important than giving your convention attendees a safe, welcoming event?
“It’s a witch hunt!”
Oh yes, of course. I’m sure it’s a big old conspiracy between Matthesen, Kowal, Priest, Kendall, Wiscon, Tor Books, and everyone else who’s spoken out about their experiences with Frenkel…
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You can try to create a convention that’s safe and welcoming and friendly. Or you can put a man with a long, public history of harassment in a position of authority, with access to your guests.
You can’t do both.
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ETA: Odyssey Con has posted a statement on Facebook (now removed, but screencapped by Natalie Luhrs), which includes this gem: “Odyssey Con is now, always has been, and always will be, open and welcoming to all. We do not allow anyone, not even a guest of honor, to dictate that someone else must be excluded from it.” (Read the full statement for context.)
ETA2: As of 4/12, Odyssey Con has posted a new statement on Facebook. This one notes, “Frenkel is no longer a member of our ConCom in any capacity, he has no position of authority in the convention proper, and he is not a panelist or lecturer. He has the right to purchase a badge and attend the convention, but as of this writing, I do not know if he is planning to do that.”
Marie Brennan
April 11, 2017 @ 3:20 pm
When I hear from multiple affected parties that Frenkel has apologized to them for his behavior, then I might start considering a second chance to be a reasonable thing.
“A second chance” would not, in the first instance, take the form of putting him in a vitally important public-facing position.
This? Is just completely tone-deaf. And their response to Monica goes well beyond that.
Liz H.
April 11, 2017 @ 3:45 pm
This is very discouraging to hear. This is 2017 after all, shouldn’t we be passed this kind of behavior?
Susan
April 11, 2017 @ 4:31 pm
The concom *had* to know there could be issues around Frenkel. Monica Valentinelli’s blog reports that he was her guest liaison at first and she was considering withdrawing from the con because of that, but then someone else took on the role as liaison and as her point of contact. Then, just before the convention she discovers that he’s still on the committee AND that she is supposed to appear with him on programs.
What was the point? Did they expect her to just cave in and attend the convention anyway? So many, many times women have historically been told to not make a scene, to not disappoint people, to settle things privately, to “go along to get along”. . . Did the ConCom think that if their guest didn’t find out that she was expected to be on panels with a person who has been banned from other conventions for harassment and whom she is not comfortable with, until the very last minute, she’d just meekly do it?
I admire Monica Valentinelli’s actions. I was raised in a time and place where I would have been expected to “meet my obligations” and do something even if I didn’t feel safe or right about it. It’s time for that old set of expectations to go away. Public actions like hers help this happen.
Marie Brennan
April 11, 2017 @ 4:39 pm
“Odyssey Con is now, always has been, and always will be, open and welcoming to all. We do not allow anyone, not even a guest of honor, to dictate that someone else must be excluded from it.”
Well, the virtue of that is, now I can strike Odyssey Con off my list of potential events to attend. Because if they really do think of this issue in terms of “our GoH is trying to dictate who can and cannot attend,” then they have missed the boat so thoroughly it is already in its destination port, and they’re floundering in neck-deep water with no idea how to swim.
Susan
April 11, 2017 @ 4:52 pm
Oh, for crying out loud.
Odyssey Con has decided that the appropriate way to handle someone contacting them with concerns about harassment and problem behavior on the part of one of their committee members is to PUBLICLY post the email sent by the person with a concern.
(go here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/22351026475/ and click “discussion”. You don’t have to belong to their group, it’s right there for anyone to see.)
Hey, great move, Odyssey Con! Well, to be fair, your harassment policy says that people should report it to the con – you didn’t promise anything about confidentiality or professionalism.
Janiece
April 11, 2017 @ 5:08 pm
You know, the more I hear about other women’s experiences at SciFi/Fantasy conventions, the less likely I am to want to attend another one, ever again.
While my experiences do not include an episode of harassment, my daughter was serially harassed at a variety of cons, and guess what? The tone deafness of the response was very much like OddCon’s.
I served in the Navy during the pre-Tailhook years. It makes me wonder if con organizers are taking their cues from the cashiered officers that ran that particular event.
depizan
April 11, 2017 @ 5:27 pm
Looks like Odyssey Con is in damage control mode, at least on their Facebook. They’ve pulled the statement and the posting of the emails. I wish I had some faith that that was because they realized the screwed up and will now take constructive action. But what I expect is that they will pick some new way to mess up instead.
HelenS
April 11, 2017 @ 5:57 pm
What exactly is a Guest Liaison, anyway? It really doesn’t sound like the best position for someone with that history…
Jim C. Hines
April 11, 2017 @ 6:03 pm
HelenS – In my experience, it’s the person who reaches out and coordinates with the Guests of Honor, and/or the person who makes sure everything’s going smoothly for one or more GoHs during the convention. I don’t know exactly what the role would involve at Odyssey Con.
Monica Valentinelli Withdraws as GoH of Odyssey Con | File 770
April 11, 2017 @ 6:37 pm
[…] Jim C. Hines – “Odyssey Con, Frenkel, and Harassment” […]
Kate Kirby
April 11, 2017 @ 6:39 pm
I’ve been to Odyssey con, and can say that as conventions goes, it’s really terrible. The culture is definitely Old Nerd in a bad way, the kind of nerd that has been ostracized for no social skills and bands together with other white male nerds to find solidarity. And they need a place too, I suppose, but if you don’t strongly believe that D&D peaked when Gary Gygax was part of TSR and nerd culture was better before it went mainstream, you won’t find your people here.
Sally
April 11, 2017 @ 6:45 pm
I’d only heard it was a random harasser. But a KNOWN QUANTITY? And they say they’ve never heard of any problems with him? Apparently the OdysseyCon staff have been sealed in a hermetic bubble for the past 4 years.
Nellie Batz
April 11, 2017 @ 7:17 pm
OdysseyCon deleted the email post off their FB timeline as it’s not there but there are people taking them to task for posting it.
Rory
April 11, 2017 @ 7:24 pm
How could they POSSIBLY have known about horrible behavior by this man at another con when it occurred a whole SEVEN MILES AWAY?
Marley
April 11, 2017 @ 9:40 pm
Jim, thank you for calling more attention to this.
Pretty Terrible | Odyssey Con Fucks Up But Good
April 11, 2017 @ 10:09 pm
[…] Jim Hines […]
Bieeanda
April 11, 2017 @ 10:28 pm
Just love their implication that their ex-GoH is a prima donna…
Bill Dunn
April 11, 2017 @ 11:26 pm
For Kate Kirby – I really don’t think you quite understand the culture of Odyssey Con. Old Nerd in a bad way, yes, but a place for white male nerds to find solidarity? Not when you consider how many women have been involved in its organization and leadership over many years. Having been a regular attendee (several years ago), I’ve seen it declining because it’s aging and in a bad way – realistically speaking, it’s dying. If I had to guess why they still involve and even support James Frenkel, it’s because of his contacts in the biz, his experience, and his energy in organizing the con. Without those, they probably think they’re looking at the end of the con.
KatG
April 12, 2017 @ 1:01 am
“If I had to guess why they still involve and even support James Frenkel, it’s because of his contacts in the biz, his experience, and his energy in organizing the con. Without those, they probably think they’re looking at the end of the con.”
Except that other than being the husband of respected author Joan D. Vinge, Frenkel’s pretty much burned his bridges with his contacts and most current authors don’t want him organizing any con because he’s been abusive of authority he’s had his whole career. It is saddening, but not really surprising, that Frenkel’s behavior was put up with for decades, including by his employers (Tor did not do themselves credit by letting him damage their brand and harass their authors for years while pretending it wasn’t going on.) It was only finally when Frenkel publicly harassed a prominent female author in front of numerous witnesses at a convention that he faced repercussions and was eased out of his job, because they couldn’t ignore it anymore. In terms of the industry, he’s a limping man walking and would have been smarter to retire, and right now, he’s certainly not needed to actually organize any con, whereas a lot of female authors and their allies are, because those authors are actually the draw for the convention.
What really upsets me about this is that Valentinelli was already harassed by Frenkel previously and told the con staff that this was the case. And they responded by essentially ignoring what she told them and declaring that harassment — public, witnessed harassment — had never occurred to her or to anyone else. It’s classic abusive gaslighting, and it shows that they don’t value their authors and are not worth authors investing time and money in as a work opportunity. And before Valentinelli withdrew herself, she learned that a whole bunch of other authors were avoiding the convention altogether because of Frenkel’s involvement running the convention. Odyssey Con has lost out, probably for years, on a lot of authors who could be valuable draws for them because they clung to someone who has been toxic for quite awhile. Even if they think Frenkel has turned over a new leaf and will behave himself at the convention, that doesn’t require letting him be the point person on guests and programming so that people avoid their convention. The convention is dying because they are deliberately letting people like Frenkel kill it off.
Conventions are useful to authors as a publicity enterprise, but they aren’t essential, especially in the age of the Internet. And there are lots and lots of cons to choose from, so authors don’t have to put up with any convention where they feel working conditions are unsafe, no matter how prominent or large the convention. Lots of conventions operate just fine with their authors not being harassed, with their guests not being harassed. But Odyssey Con seems determined to make the experience of their convention unpleasant.
Marie Brennan
April 12, 2017 @ 3:51 am
The convention is dying because they are deliberately letting people like Frenkel kill it off.
Exactly. And if silencing and ignoring everyone who objects to guys like Frenkel really is the cost of keeping the con afloat on an organizational level . . . then I’m fine living in a world without Odyssey Con in it. As you said, there are many other cons out there that don’t carry that price tag.
SET
April 12, 2017 @ 3:58 am
I’ve not been involved in con-running…. but I would have the impression that someone as “Guest Liason” would have as part of their job knocking on the guest’s hotel room door in the morning as a wake up call, checking on them at various times in the green room or elsewhere to see if anything was needed. Providing transportation to and from the airport/ bus/ train station… etc. Possibly even being the person to arrange for guest’s rooms, and possibly place their own strategically?
In which case, why the hell would you have someone with that kind of reputation as Guest Liason for ANYONE, let alone a woman GoH…. particularly after being informed that SHE HERSELF had been sexually harassed by this person, why would you allow them to be on staff AT ALL?
I am really really dissappointed in people I’d thought were my friends, as this is a con I’d been to many times in the past. (and to whom I’d previously expressed discomfort that he was on in a non-concom staff position, and was told it was unofficial, and he wouldn’t be dealing with the public, or guests…. but apparently that’s been thrown out the window too.) Sure he hasn’t victimised anyone who has both told you about it AND that you respect enough to take seriously. Never mind that he seems to VERY CLEARLY have a type, and that he’s not targeted you doesn’t mean squat.
I’m so sorry this is happening, it so easily could have been avoided.
No one respects *me* enough to pay my concerns anymind, and then when the crap I said was going to happen hits the fan, everyone acts surprised.
Lisa Hertel
April 12, 2017 @ 7:22 am
It appears the convention has fired Frenkel, though he can still attend (but not be on program). Having dealt with some on this before, I know many cons are torn between “what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” (i.e., it didn’t happen at our con), and “let’s get these missing stairs out of our community.”
Susan
April 12, 2017 @ 9:42 am
As Lisa notes above, the concom has put out a new statement by Alex Merrill, co-chair (at https://www.facebook.com/groups/22351026475/permalink/10154572302686476/ ) It notes that Mr. Frenkel is no longer a member of the concom. It also includes an apology to Monica for mishandling the response to the situation and a specific apology for posting her emails publicly.
While only the person deserving the apology gets to decide if it’s suitable, I do think that the overall tone of this posting is much improved and if this had been the first thing that Odyssey Con said on this issue, they would have de-escalated the situation quite a bit.
Unfortunately, it wasn’t their first posting. And if read closely, it still has issues. It says that the concom discussed Mr. Frenkel back in 2012 when he was banned from Wiscon (oh, really? You had that discussion in 2012?) and therefore it directly contradicts statements the co-chair (Janet) made in the comments of that now-deleted first posting, when she said that the concom had no idea that there had ever been a problem with him. I was typing a reply to that comment, was providing a link to the Wiscon ban but the entire posting was deleted as I was typing, so I don’t have a screencap. However other people have noted Janet’s response to comments, defending Mr. Frenkel.
So….the concom has committee members responding for the committee without the rest of the concom knowing about it (and how did Greg not know about the committee trying to form a response to Monica’s initial letter? Was he not part of that discussion?). We have one co-chair posting private emails regarding a potential harassment complaint and making statements that are then deleted. We have another co-chair making statements that contradict the first co-chair….
I don’t know. Was the concom deliberately minimizing the presence of a known harasser on their staff? Did some of the concom truly not know Mr. Frenkel’s history, co-chairs statement to the contrary? The most charitable explanation I can come up with is that you’ve got a bunch of people who don’t talk to each other and don’t look outside of their very tight little clique to see what’s going on in the real world. Even with that interpretation…it’s no way to run a convention that you’re marketing to the general community.
Rory
April 12, 2017 @ 12:28 pm
Not only what’s going on in the real world, but what went on in the SAME DAMN TOWN.
SunflowerP
April 12, 2017 @ 2:44 pm
Oh, but he’s never (been fomally reported to have) done it at THAT con!
He did it at WisCon; he did it at Tor; supposing (as the concom appears to have done) that ‘you don’t shit where you live’ would apply to OddCon is a remarkable feat of cognitive gymnastics.
SET
April 12, 2017 @ 3:43 pm
Has there been a personal apology for the posting of the guest’s emails?
because *that* was highly inappropriate, and should have been obviously “don’t do that”.
and I KNOW they were aware that people had avoided the con, had doubts about going at all, because of his prescence and those concerns were blown off.
I’ve seen the same excuses applied to this, as to the harassment of the young women trying to join the D&D group when I was in college in the 80s.
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April 12, 2017 @ 5:32 pm
[…] responses on OdysseyCon and the Frenkel matter from well-trusted names like Mary Robinette Kowal, Jim C. Hines, K. Tempest Bradford, Kelly McCullough and more. Kowal seems to speak for the majority when she […]
KatG
April 12, 2017 @ 5:33 pm
The members of the concom kept lying, is what happened. She went to them first off when they tried to have Frenkel as her guest liaison. They promised her that he wouldn’t be part of the concom, be a guest liaison and she wouldn’t have to interact with him. Then she found out because other people were avoiding the con because of him that they’d lied to her, that Frenkel was on the concom, was still a guest liaison and that she was scheduled to do programming for them with him.
And when she confronted them about it, the guy who responded indicated that she was lying about Frenkel harassing her and that she’d have to suck it up. So she withdrew as GOH. Only to have one of the chiefs of the concom dox her on their public Facebook page, claim they never knew Frenkel’s rep (a clear lie,) that she never contacted them about the issue before (a clear lie,) and let another guy on the concom with a harassing rep as well call her dishonest, unstable and uncooperative.
Even if this was not about a sexual harassment issue, the behavior of the concom members in having known harassers on the organizing committee, lying to their guest of honor repeatedly about it, doxxing her and exposing her to online harassment, calling her basically a liar and crazy, etc. is more than enough to give any author pause about working with this convention while these people are running the thing.
I Can’t Even | The Open Window
April 12, 2017 @ 6:45 pm
[…] a decent round-up of links with the details of this mess, which you can check out if you want: http://www.jimchines.com/2017/04/odyssey-con-frenkel-and-harassment/ A number of other authors have been talking about it on Twitter or their blogs, with great […]
Susan
April 13, 2017 @ 10:30 am
Interesting. Pegasus Games, one of their sponsors, has withdrawn (see here: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10156390538694848&id=50164954847 ) and the con has mostly deleted them from the sponsorship page – the text entry for them is gone, the graphic remains but is adjoining another sponsor’s entry, as if the delete was done by someone who doesn’t know web pages very well.
As I typed this they *finally* started to delete Monica Valentinelli’s GOH listing – it was on the front page 4 minutes ago, as I went to grab the screen shot it went away.
Susan
April 13, 2017 @ 4:07 pm
And now instead of taking Tad Williams *off* (he’s withdrawn, too) they’ve put Monica Valentinelli back *on* the front page. This is just like the changing/vanishing official statements. Is there anyone in charge there? The internet has more up to date “real” news about the convention than official convention pages do.
Elektra
April 14, 2017 @ 12:20 am
Just an FYI re: Guest Liaision (I’ve worked some conventions). Typically they are tasked with making sure the GOH gets where they are supposed to be for the weekend, as well as getting them anything they need (within reason). Sort of a personal assistant. Because often a GOH may not have attended the convention before and might have trouble finding panel rooms, etc., at a convention where they will have a lot of events and lots of people will want to talk to them. Their liaison will keep them in coffee and sandwiches, aspirin, etc . . .
kathe
April 14, 2017 @ 10:48 am
THIS COMMENT INCLUDES PROFANITY. be warned. I am angry. Jim, if you think ist not appropriate feel free to delete this comment.
I hate enablers..
Like they basically supplemented that abusive wankstain with new victims,.. idk why, because they dont wanna dram or because they had the fucking luck to not fit in his victim scheme.. his behaviors is now know for how long? 14 years…
And the fact that he got kicked out by multiple cons should speak enough.. so those fucking assholes from con.org seem to cherish an known abuser over his victims. I cant see it any other way.. I mean yeah, sorry if drama feels bad for your, orga, but being fucking abused feels worse.
ugh my fucking stomach hurts because I am so angry.
Jim C. Hines
April 14, 2017 @ 11:00 am
kathe – No worries. I think anger is completely appropriate here.
Michelle
April 14, 2017 @ 1:33 pm
I was a victim of a convention staffer’s sexual harassment about ten years ago, and that convention’s resultant ignorance of my formal report. That convention treated me like I was a waste of their time. A few years later I caught him quite literally cornering another woman who was trying to get away from him. I pulled her away and shouted at him quite loudly that he was a pervert and to leave women alone, then we went into a bathroom and she told me that he had been following her all weekend. Eventually, he was removed or he quit, I’m not sure which. That convention has changed their policy and was one of the last to do so, but I don’t know that they’ve changed their processes.
There have been changes at many conventions, but no convention should have ever allowed Frenkel back. Conventions are a luxury, not a necessity, and there’s no reason to give him second chances on returning. He can live without them. I applaud Monica for standing up against it, and for those making it public.
KatG
April 14, 2017 @ 7:10 pm
So saddened to hear that you had to go through that, Michelle, and that’s the heart of the matter irrespective of individual harassers.
If you let harassers keep going after people at your con, you become the convention to avoid. They think so often that they’ll get a bad reputation if it gets out that someone made a harassment claim, that something happened at their convention, so they try to dismiss it, suppress it, get rid of the victims rather than the harasser. (Even though there’s a tremendous risk of an eventual serious physical assault that will involve police and lawsuits and/or very public incidents out on the floor.)
But people talk to each other. Women warn each other. Authors are frequently in communication with each other. And they then avoid the places where harassers are allowed to roam or worse, involved in running the convention. A convention is not hiding anything by cosseting harassers and abusing victims who speak out. It develops the reputation as a not-safe place with poor con-runners with those most likely to go to conventions. Thousands of people avoid the convention and never come back. The harassers destroy their brand. And more personally specific — it can have bad effects on the careers of people running the convention, especially if they are publishing — again, people don’t want to hang out or work with harassers or their enablers.
A convention can get away with it for a time, but eventually they fall behind, especially if they aren’t a media con that relies on celebrity actors to draw in the crowds. Their reputation is under siege as soon as a harasser goes after somebody, no matter how prominent the harasser. They can fix that reputation by helping the victims, working to set up effective deterrence like posted harassment policies, taking steps to stop harassment before it gets really started, and proving to attendees — who again talk to each other and other potential attendees — that they want and are trying to make the convention safe for all.
If they don’t do it and instead try to deny and bury the issue in favor of the harasser, you start losing all your big Guests of Honor and your con’s reputation gets trashed anyway, whether there’s a public cry-out or not. So you have a choice — do you make a known harasser who thousands of people in the field are furious at your guest liaison, telling those people that they should stay away, or do you keep the harasser on board and that becomes what your convention is about?
Frenkel knew what would happen if he was on the comcon — he’s smart. And he knew he’d harassed Monica in the past — and that she didn’t want to deal with him because she’d already gone over that with the convention. But he didn’t care enough about the con not to try it and apparently the people running the show didn’t care enough about their convention not to make him their brand above anything else. And so they are now the convention to avoid.
But they were also the convention to avoid before this — as clearly many people had been talking about how it wasn’t a safe place and not going, leading to a decline in attendance. It can reach a tipping point where it starts happening very quickly. The world of fiction runs on word of mouth. If you don’t take harassment claims seriously, the word of mouth is going to be to stay away.
Timing Is Everything | Bill Bodden
April 24, 2017 @ 2:00 pm
[…] but they are important. For a good synopsis and coverage of closely related topics, check out this LINK to Jim Hines’ link-heavy blog post on the topic. Respected Sci-Fi community news source File […]
Loose-leaf Links #38 | Earl Grey Editing
April 27, 2017 @ 6:03 pm
[…] of Honour due to the presence of Jim Frenkel, a known serial harasser, on the convention committee. Jim C. Hines details some of Frenkel’s history, while Mary Robinette Kowal has some strong words on the situation. Valentinelli’s withdrawal […]