Recently, at least in on-line comments, I’ve noticed a shorter variation on this where someone (almost always IDed as a man, but sometimes as a woman) simply says, “I don’t believe you”. The only effective response I’ve found do far is to thank them for demonstrating why it’s so hard to report this stuff effectively.
Torrain August 10, 2013 @ 8:56 pm
Thank you.
Ken Marable August 10, 2013 @ 9:30 pm
It’s tragic, but you got it perfectly.
Ashleigh August 10, 2013 @ 11:15 pm
It’s sad that these are the reactions. Each time you just victimise the victim and its almost, no it is saying sexual harassment is ok. ITs not.
In box #1, Argument #2 is completely legitimate. #3 and #4 could potentially be legitimate.
In box #2, Argument #1 and #5 are completely legitimate.
Box #3 I’m good with.
Everyone has a right to make accusations and everyone has a right to defend themselves, in the law or in the court of public opinion. No matter how widespread or pernicious an action, assault or crime. I acknowledge that sexual harassment is a legitimate violation and threat, but victims or harassment are just as capable as non-victims of lying or slandering. Anyone that doesn’t believe this happens all the time is uninformed or ignorant.
I also find this “comic” to be sexist because it infers with its many gender references that only women can be victims of sexual harassment. Sexual harassment against men is on the rise because women are increasingly earning leadership roles in the workforce.
StaceyHH August 11, 2013 @ 2:45 am
Wheeeee! We got the false accusation garbage, AND the “men are victims too” derailment all in the same response! Good time, good times.
Also, this comic didn’t infer anything. You inferred what it may or may not have implied.
Workforce? What? Did you miss out on the point of the comic? This is relating to sexual harassment at cons, which is far more prevalent and immediate than anything at a workplace. And I find YOUR argument sexist. It negatively portrays women in leadership roles as sexual harassers.
A Grown-Up Man August 11, 2013 @ 5:22 am
It’s not hard to avoid being getting into these situations in the first place. If. You. Just. Try.
Really? Is that what you think? And how would qualify that as? Should a woman not wear a skirt? Should she not sit at a bar with friends? Is that what you would suggest? I’d suggest that you actually try and inform yourself on on how sexual harassment at cons happens. Often times its a guy who steps into a conversation and acts overly familiar or just generally acts like a lecher. If a woman is just minding her own business, whether walking down a corridor or having drinks/mean with friends, or whatever the situation is, no man has a right to invade her personal space. Even otherwise, its much more appropriate to err on the side of caution and control your impulses.
Frankly, if a man is… attracted to women in such situations and feels like acting on his impulses, he has no business being at the con.
The blame should never, ever be on the women because that is disrespectful and demeaning. Us men not being able to control what’s between our pants is our own damn fault, not the women. No one deserves to be sexually harassed because they “didn’t avoid getting into a situation in the first place”. Shit like that promotes rape culture.
Joris M August 11, 2013 @ 7:49 am
I am not sure whether this is simply an illustration of Lewis’ Law, or a showing it is applicable in wider context. Either way 🙁
@ Jim thanks, great illustration of this horrible situation
Joris M August 11, 2013 @ 7:54 am
My interpretation was that it was aimed at the behaviour of the harassers (don’t harass/creep and you will avoid these situations).
Of course I might be overly optimistic. @ A Grown-Up Man, some elaboration would be nice.
Elise Matthesen August 11, 2013 @ 8:24 am
Yep, that’s pretty much how too many of those conversations go.
(There wasn’t anywhere in the comic to put “If you make one report, you are a ‘serial accuser,’ but one comic cannot contain everything. Just as well, probably.)
Correct. If more people, particularly men, would try to treat people with respect instead of as sexual objects, they could avoid creating situations where people are sexually harassed.
I believe you mean “implies,” not “infers.” Which is still a silly accusation, but at least get the terminology right.
Also, thank you for proving my point.
Timothy August 11, 2013 @ 11:21 am
How is pointing out that false accusations do in fact occur, all too often and with devastating effect on the unfairly accused, “garbage”? This observation does not minimize legitimate instances of sexual harassment or assault. In fact, recognizing that this occurs is important to prevent unwarranted harm to falsely accused people when we start bringing the appropriate punishments down on actual abusers. While accusations should never be brushed aside they should be vetted, and any person found to be falsely accusing someone should face consequences. Not only do false accusations harm innocent people who are accused, they make it more difficult for actual victims to be heard.
Timothy August 11, 2013 @ 11:33 am
I’d have to say that A Grown-Up Man’s comment is rather asinine whichever way he meant it. While Abbinay Jain has a rather ridiculously broad definition of “sexual harassment” (judging from his rant he thinks saying “Hi, you’re hot” is sexual harassment), he is correct that blaming a woman who is harassed because she “dressed provocatively” or “hung out in the wrong place” is stupid. If A Grown-Up Man was suggesting it was easy to avoid false accusations – well, again his logic fails. How do you protect yourself against false accusations? Short of having multiple cameras mounted on your body recording everything you say and do at all times that is.
The problem is that *every* time someone tries to talk about sexual harassment and assault, which occurs far more often than false accusations, someone else — almost always a guy — comes along to change the focus of the conversation away from victims of sexual harassment.
There’s also the way the idea of false accusations is ridiculously overinflated and used, either deliberately or out of ignorance, to undermine every victim of harassment and assault who tries to speak up.
We’re done talking about false accusations here. Further comments on the topic will be eaten by goblins.
Yep, A Man August 11, 2013 @ 11:48 am
Oh, you got me, Jim! You’re so clever! I used “inferred,” instead of “implied!” Way to focus on the trivial rather than the “actual argument.” Sorry that I believe in something as insignificant as due process. I’m glad I could “prove your point” in such typical, misogynistic fashion. Because anytime a victim of harassment….(sorry, I meant, women at cons…because let’s face it, only women at cons get harassed) claims SHE was harassed, the person (I mean, MAN) should instantly be fired, dragged through the court of public opinion, drawn and quartered. To suggest otherwise–to come up with any kind of EXCUSE–is revolting and the person should be publicly shunned!
What tripe.
And, Abhinaav, your comment of me being sexist is ridiculous. I did not “negatively portray women in leadership roles as sexual harassers,” but noted that sexual harassment claims against women have risen because they’re assuming higher places in the workforce. Anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge about harassment knows that first and foremost it’s about “power.”
Lastly,I might not have implied or inferred this in my initial post, but I too have been a victim of sexual harassment. Yes, a MAN! While at UCLA, a female professor said she would not allow me to write a certain paper unless I slept with her. Of course, she did it with a smile, as if it was tongue in cheek, but the threat was implicit. I’ve also been groped by women, and gay men. And several times…wait for it…I was even hit on at a CON! Stop the presses! It must have been sexual harassment! Or maybe just someone looking to meet someone else at a function in which she thought we might have something in common. I am in no way suggesting this is reflective of any or every experience, only mine. I can only speak for me, unlike Jim. But, hey, it’s your blog, and you posted all the EXCUSES, so I must be wrong.
Or deleted, right, JIm? Was that implied? Or just inferred?
You need to go rant somewhere else. You’re done here.
LisaR August 11, 2013 @ 12:15 pm
“It’s not hard FOR A MAN to avoid being getting into these situations in the first place. If. You. Just. Try.”
FTFY
Ya see, the way to avoid it is not to harrass. Period.
I’m a 50 year old woman who experienced much con harassment in my younger days – as recently as 2005, even. I was just standing and talking with a group of my friends, when a guy came up, grabbed my ass and ground his hips against me. We were all shocked. I was lucky – one of my friends was the con organizer, and called security over and had the guy removed from the event.
How could I have “tried” to avoid it? I guess you’d think I was dressed provocatively (which isn’t a reason anyway, but would be in your book.) Nope. I was wearing a nice dress that I’d worn to a wedding previously. I hadn’t even spoken to the guy. Nope. He just thought my bod was there for his entertainment.
This isn’t the only time things like this happened. It’s just the most recent.
Your argument is invalid.
Pfusand August 11, 2013 @ 12:22 pm
Oh, of course, A Man.
Somehow, in your ever-so-careful reading here, you missed the fact that the scenario being portrayed is THE INITIAL ACCUSATION. This is not the end game here. This is the first step.
What you are saying, without admitting it, is that you do not want the first step to be taken.
For the attentive people in this conversation, I would like to point out that I learned (back in my first, general class in Law Enforcement in 1965) that the “false accusation” level for rape was the SAME as for other crimes — 3%.
Cdoring August 11, 2013 @ 12:36 pm
You showed up in a forum connected to a comic that was making a point about harassment at cons, etc. specifically directed at women, and the typical reactions they receive. This happens EVERY FUCKING TIME this conversation takes place on the net. It is a derailing tactic used by some people hostile to the idea of change. Derailing a thread, even a tiny one like this, is going to expose you to abuse in the present climate.
That is disgusting what happened to you. Men get sexually harassed every day, I know this. I’ve experienced it myself. But the fact remains that it happens to women a whole HELL of a lot more, with the added benefit of fears of rape. When you are groped or unwelcomely hit on at a con or other such event, do you then spend the rest of your time at said event in a state of mild fear ranging up to borderline panic, depending on your own life experiences? I’m sorry, but as a man who has also experienced my fair share of aggressive, unwelcome advances(I’m happily married) from men and women both, I just don’t think it’s fair to equate the experiences unless you are a man who has experienced systematic, traumatizing sexual abuse. Even if you are, you should find a community that is made for discussing those experiences, not come in and discuss your trauma in a place it will be unwelcome and may contain triggers.
And to the others here who cry about evidence and false accusations… Outside of criminal proceedings, evidence is less important than protecting victims at this stage of the game. Yes, I do support outing abusers publicly, especially when there is corroboration, anonymous or not. The current climate online and in these communities demands drastic action to make the culture safe fir EVERYONE. That means pushing back HARD against the tide of bullshit emanating from all apologists, unintentional or not. That means believing the alleged victim first outright. Does it mean there will be false accusations and possibly ruined reps? Yes it does. Arrogant as it may be, that is an acceptable price to pay to change this culture of sexism.For me at least. Even if it means exposing myself. Change never comes without pain.
Ellen Wingrove August 11, 2013 @ 12:37 pm
Please don’t discount false accusations. Remember the Duke Lacrosse case? They were completely innocent. A good freiend of mine while I was at Duke was the mother of one of the 3 arrested players, so I am intimately familiar with the pain of a false accusation. Guess where he works now? He’s a lawyer for the Innocence Project.
And my husband was falsely accused of worse – death threats. He just won a bunch of money from the accuser, who actually sued HIM. And rumor has it that she’s starting in on him again with rape allegations, also incredible lies. Be very careful – look at the facts. PZ Myers recent post is an example of anonnymous accusations. As a woman, I feel he is doing us a disservice. Shermer is probably a total pig, but I want to know the facts.
Job August 11, 2013 @ 12:38 pm
@Yep A Man
Leesee …
— Sexually harassed by his professor in an academic setting.
— Sexually harassed at con.
— Groped, not once, but SEVERAL times.
— Groped by homosexual men.
— Groped by women.
What a panoply of assaults.
I do not agree with your general argument — if I understand it correctly — that no report of sexual harassment should be made, in general terms, on the internet.
Or perhaps that is not what you are saying because that’s what you yourself are doing.
However, I certainly agree with you that lots of people tell lies.
Ellen Wingrove August 11, 2013 @ 12:39 pm
sorry for the misspellings – I’m using an ipad
A. Myint August 11, 2013 @ 1:28 pm
“A Grown Up Man”, people like you are part of the problem: Here’s a better solution than your simple-minded BOYISH answer: How about we prosecute the scum that commit the crimes so other scum will think twice about committing the crimes? Note: If you actually have to tell people you’re “grown Up”, you’re not.
GarrettC August 11, 2013 @ 1:41 pm
Saying, “Hi, you’re hot!” IS sexual harassment, if you’ve been asked not to say it and continue to do so.
And just casually going around saying it to people isn’t really you being complimentary, either.
Like not going to a con? Like not working in a profession that’s dominated by males? By not going out at night? By not going anywhere without a muscle-bound, male escort?
It’s really sad that you’re putting it on the victim to prevent these things. This sounds like the shit they were telling us 30 years ago, when I was an undergrad. How about making the harassers responsible for their own behavior?
For crying out loud, no one said someone accused of harassment shouldn’t receive a fair hearing or due process. The cartoon focused on the issues an alleged victim faces when trying to go forward with a complaint. These are things that prevent “due process” from ever even taking place.
[…] C. Hines: Sexual Harassment Conversations in Comic Form. A current big deal in sci-fi, comic, and a variety of geek related circles. I’m glad it is […]
Amanda August 11, 2013 @ 8:54 pm
I’m so confused by posts like this. If you’ve been sexually harassed I would think you’d understand why it’s important not to instantly shame people the moment they make an accusation (in fact, I bet men feel super embarrassed to report it too!). The point is that every accusation should be given due process, even if it is ultimately dismissed– but currently, for both men and women, the majority of accusations are met with the disbelief and harassment mentioned above. You’re… you’re kind of proving the point.
I think it was on a blog post here that I saw somebody honestly comment, “99% of accusations are legit, but we need to focus on the 1% and make sure nobody’s life is ruined by a false accusation.” I had to walk away from the computer.
Anyway, thanks for being spot-on as usual!
Eleventh Hour August 11, 2013 @ 9:56 pm
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens when men such as John Scalzi, Jim Hines or P.Z. Myers are accused of sexual harassment.
[…] Reacciones a una denuncia de acoso/agresión sexual […]
Eli August 12, 2013 @ 7:45 am
I don’t believe that you don’t believe me. Prove it.
Sarah August 12, 2013 @ 8:31 am
That they understand that anonymous accounts are completely uncontrollable and unverifiable therefore the angry MRAs on the other side of this are going to have a field day?
Or that PZ Myers has already demonstrated that he only criticises abusers who *aren’t* his friends (and excuses Greg Laden for his violent and abusive messages – while *excoriating* his victim (Justin Griffith) – ironically for ‘Naming Names’ which PZ is normally in favour of, until it hits one of his own.)
Or were you implying something else…?
Elizabeth A. Mancz August 12, 2013 @ 8:34 am
What sprung to my mind after reading the blog and comments was that if we live in a culture where multiple people feel that they can coerce another person to have sex with them with impunity, we have a major problem. And we need to do something about it. The first step is coming up with some way for people to feel that they can report such things freely. By that I mean they should feel that there is someone to whom they can report sexual harassment(or any other kind of harassment for that matter) without worrying about whether they will be criticized or not believed for doing so. Because if we do not know that the problem exists, how prevalent it is, or who exactly is affected, then we can’t do much to fix it. Once we have that, we can go on to the problems of how to deal with the accusation and the accused. But first we need to know what is happening.
Thanks for bringing the topic up. If we don’t talk about these things, we can’t even get to step one. It is obvious that a number of people find this topic unsettling and are trying to derail it. Please don’t. Yes, it is uncomfortable to talk about these things. But if we want to end sexual harassment (and other types of harassment) we have to talk about it.
Cdoring August 12, 2013 @ 8:39 am
Eleventh Hour: Sure, because those guys have a long history of disgusting behavior at conferences. Unlike Michael Shermer, say? I’m certain someone will eventually make an “anonymous” accusation at PZ Myers to get revenge for him supporting a freind, something he acknowledge and accepted. And why would you throw Scalzi there? For basically saying, “Don’t be a dick.” Let me guess what your agenda might be?
Lila August 12, 2013 @ 10:39 am
Both this thread and Myers’ blog are busily proving the hell out of Jim’s point.
EJensen August 12, 2013 @ 12:45 pm
Love the comic. Thank you, Jim, so much for taking a stand.
PeterG August 12, 2013 @ 3:47 pm
Interesting that this came up today. I just saw this TED talk. Apparently nobody wants to listen to whistle blowers.
As for me every time I hear that something bad has happened to someone I know my first reaction is to try to figure out what they did wrong or how they might be overreacting. I find it very hard to accept that a horrible senseless thing has happened.
Alan August 12, 2013 @ 6:38 pm
“And I find YOUR argument sexist. It negatively portrays women in leadership roles as sexual harassers.”
Nonsense, it simply claims that sexual abuse is more common when the perp is in a position of power – therefore if more women are in a position of power, there will be more women perps. That’s not sexist, it’s simply stats.
Dude August 12, 2013 @ 8:14 pm
[This comment munched up by a grumpy fire-spider. Because as we all know, Smudge loves junk food.]
You are not giving any stats, sir. You are simply making a claim based on a vague precedent that since its always the men in power acting as sexual harassers, then the women in power will be as well. How does that equate? And in a tacit way, you kinda make the point anyway, that men in power DO abuse their responsibilities. No one’s denying that there aren’t women out there who engage in sexual harassment, but to make a blanket statement? That’s inappropriate, to say the least.
Amy August 12, 2013 @ 11:48 pm
The responses in the comics are absolutely wrong.
They might come from a sense of powerlessness and shame; that the speaker doesn’t know how to react to the situation. So instead of educating themselves or merely being silent they deny it or get self-righteous.
Maybe teaching each other how to react (some of the links on this site have been great for that) would be a good thing.
Alan August 12, 2013 @ 11:51 pm
“No one’s denying that there aren’t women out there who engage in sexual harassment”
This is exactly what myself, and “Yep, A Man” were saying. You admit there is some percentage of women who engage in these activities (the size is irrelevant), and we’re saying that as the number of women in power grows, the number of male victims (note: number, not percentage) will as well.
I don’t see what’s possibly wrong or offensive about that?
Alan August 13, 2013 @ 12:07 am
Let me put it this way to you. You own a store, and you know 2% of all items you order are defective. If you order twice as many items, you’ll get twice as many defective ones (sure, there may be some small random deviations, maybe 3.9% or 4.1% will be defective instead, it doesn’t matter). This is all we’re saying, and I really don’t know how this is a problem…
Alan August 13, 2013 @ 12:52 am
[Paraphrase of goblin-eaten comment: “I neither understand nor respect your boundaries, so I’m going to try to further derail the conversation by continuing to talk about this.”]
That’s not all Yep, A Man was saying. Trying to argue otherwise suggests you haven’t actually read his comments.
You’re arguing math, but not referring to any actual statistics. And the math you’re trying to present seems to be based on the assumption that harassment is all about a single variable, power, and that power is exclusively about one’s position in the workplace.
Copyleft August 13, 2013 @ 8:37 am
Clearly, requiring evidence before accepting a claim is the height of misogyny, and I’d be astounded to find any so-called “skeptic” promoting such a hateful policy. You should always believe every accusation, take every claim at face value, and never, ever ask for evidence. Otherwise, what’s the point of being a skeptic?
Alan August 13, 2013 @ 8:46 am
Deleting a comment is one thing, but deliberately misrepresenting it through a misleading paraphrasing is dishonest and deceptive…
Excellent – we agree it’s easier to harass an underling (or that underlings are more vulnerable to harassment). Then, with all other factors held constant, an increase in the number of women managers will lead to an increase in the number of men harassed.
This is all I was ever saying – and I have no idea why this took so many posts to get to. OF course there are other factors at play, of course there are other issues involved etc etc. All I was objecting to was a denial of the above by Abhinav….
Flip it up. How many men are ALREADY in a position of authority over women? And I never denied it. You made a blanket statement and I countered it. You are STILL making a blanket statement.
Alan August 13, 2013 @ 9:15 am
Sure – a reduction in the number of men in power, if all other factors are held constant, will result in a reduced number of harassment incidents against women. In fact, I will go a step further, and say: When it is made harder for to against , less incidents of this will occur.
I really don’t know why saying that is so controversial……
Alan August 13, 2013 @ 9:19 am
Does “ignoring it” mean not completely acquiescing? I just want to clarify that I may even agree with you that false accusations are a non-issue – and a pre written post with solid, irrefutable links would make the case a lot more strongly than censorship.
This is not your space. You’ve ignored clearly-set boundaries. You’re continuing to do so.
I find it particularly ironic and troubling that you’re doing this in a discussion of sexual harassment.
Step back and think about your mindset here, your assumption that you shouldn’t have to respect the boundaries I’m setting on my own website. Look at your first question. After being told no, you come back with crap about “not completely acquiescing.”
And yes, it’s crap. When someone sets a boundary, you stop. Don’t like it? Tough. Don’t think it’s fair? Too bad. Think they “led you on” in some fashion? It doesn’t matter.
Short version: you will respect the boundaries I set here, or you will GTFO. There is no third option.
Alan August 13, 2013 @ 9:42 am
Of course you can ban/delete whoever you want from your own website, and I will save you the trouble by leaving myself. Just know that your overzealous censorship campaign gives a bad name to the rest of the movement, and makes it easier for the mainstream to write us off….
Thank you for providing such a clear example of “Men who don’t get the concept of boundaries.”
It helps me to have examples to point to when we discuss issues of sexism and harassment.
Sheila August 13, 2013 @ 10:24 am
Not a perfect analogy here, but a decent starter set for understanding
ha! I saved a bookmark to that post last year, not because I wanted to keep it around as a reference for discussion about women getting hit on, but because I am an atheist and it is a nice parable for explaining why a person (like me) can get twitchy at yet another conversation about religion.
Not only wrong, but stupidly wrong. You don’t have that sort of requirement on any other offense. So what makes it different? Oh yeah, a woman is saying a man did something wrong to women.
That’s it. You might reply that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. This would be true if the claim of sexual harassment were extraordinary. It’s not. It’s too fucking ordinary.
The characters in the novel The Double Life of Tutweiler Buckhead do not commit sexual harrassment. Here is the link http://sbpra.com/miriampia/.
Sexual harrassment can be so painfully blatant: basically if a man or woman makes it clear that progress or a job or help with getting to the next step in higher education is only possible if the woman has sex with someone who is in a position of power or authority over her, for example: that is sexual harrassment. Women can do that to men, but it is more common and better known to be done by men to women, but in some cases even to men. Usually one person is also older, but it is mainly the power position that does it.
Sexual harrassment can be mild or extreme. It is also true that individuals can react differently. If one woman finally gets a comment from a man and likes it, she won’t feel sexually harrassed but if a woman has had to already make her way through crowds of unfriendly but whistling men or guys making sleazy comments about her, only to get to work and have some older guy she doesn’t think is sexy say, “Hi sexy, glad you made it” (to work on time) she might well feel sexually harrassed.
Generational interpretations, culture and age group also influence whether or not people feel harrassed.
I just spent months involved in something where I realized that I was so glad to not be sexually harrassed but was really attracted to one of the men in the situation and felt a little stifled about not feeling free to say anything because we were making sure no one was sexually harrassed. It can make it like that.
Because they don’t. The rate of false accusation is about the same as for any other crime. Implying (or as you do, flat out accusing) that women make them “all to often”, and that such accusations have “devastating effect” *is* minimizing sexual assault (as is the bullshit phrasing of, “legitimate instances of…”).
So,if you want to trot out the idea that ‘false accusations’ are rampant, you’d better have stats; and citation. Because I’ve read the DoJ reports (and a huge number of the one’s used by the MRM, and their fellow travellers, to support this poppycock you’re spouting)
Again, do you have this level of scrutiny for any other interpersonal crime?
No? Then extend the same level of credibility to those who are reporting this.
Here’s the thing, no one is discounting false accusations. The Duke case was a horrible thing that should not have happened. The problem is not false accusations. The problem is, Duke or an equivalently horrible instance gets brought up.EVERY.time this subject is discussed. The false accusation is the default position on every occurence. Duke is the exception yet people make it the rule. It’s not.
[…] Sexual Harassment Conversations, in Comic Form: Jim C. Hines hits the nail on the head with the responses women receive when reporting (or not reporting) sexual harassment [Warning: the comments contain exactly the apologia the comic is mocking] […]
Wendy August 13, 2013 @ 2:02 pm
Loved this when I saw it – and then saw the false accusation meme hit 10 seconds after you tweeted it. Sigh.
On the plus side, I saw your post on the way home from a concom meeting (Chi-Fi) where the board unanimously voted to adopt an explicit anti-harassment policy and to work towards setting up procedures for reporting and appropriate action. Fully half the concom are women, most are significantly younger than my 46, and many are also signatory to the Scalzi Pledge. So I am still hopeful that cultural shifts are occurring.
Kaye August 13, 2013 @ 3:04 pm
Thank you, again, Mr. Hines, for so frequently and accurately standing up in public and saying what we (the doubted, shamed, and criticized survivors of unwanted sexual attention and violence) cannot for so many reasons. You are incredibly brave for using your public position to try to make people understand the serious issues that society has surrounding sexual harassment and violence.
You are an inspiration.
Sally August 13, 2013 @ 6:21 pm
Can I just say I love Jim for not only taking this seriously, and attempting to be part of the solution, but by having Smudge eat the trolls? It’s maybe even better than kittening!
That’s excellent news about Chi-Fi! I suspect there will always be reactionary bigots and people who are deliberately ignorant, but I also think momentum is moving in a positive direction.
ERose August 13, 2013 @ 10:27 pm
It’s always interesting to me that the actual point of most troll comments in harassment threads is “you are wrong so you should shut up,” or at the very least “you are wrong so I should dictate what you talk about.” Or really “I don’t want you to say this, so I will try to make you shut up.”
The responses in the comic are too, really – attempts at silencing or attempts at dictating someone else’s speech.
What exactly do people think will happen if we talk about harassment? And why do they seem to think it’s worth so much energy to prevent?
Sara August 14, 2013 @ 5:35 am
[“Don’t eat that, Smudge! That’s not candy. Those are troll droppings!“]
[…] fim, vou fechar com uma tirinha que saiu esses dias aí que exemplifica bem a […]
mythago August 14, 2013 @ 10:46 am
Funny how the Copylefts of the world are perfectly happy to accept certain things without a shred of evidence – such as the comments hurled in panels #2 and #3, where the person talking about sexual harassment isn’t even accusing a named person of anything.
And funny (by which I mean “tedious and predictable”) how many people want to ignore those panels, because it bothers them to admit there’s a very ugly catch-22 here. If a woman claims she was harassed , we are supposed to treat her with the same hostility and doubt as if she’d said she was kidnapped and probed by sentient interstellar dinosaur-people. But if she tries to offer, as evidence, the name of the specific harasser, well then, she’s dragging an innocent person’s name through the mud, and she should be shouted down no matter what.
I mean, look at Rene Walling’s harassment at ReaderCon. There was no dispute about what happened. And yet it was a shitstorm of people minimizing and outright lying about the (very public) facts to try and say that the accusations were overblown and maybe fake and why can’t we all just STFU and move on.
Lee August 14, 2013 @ 3:38 pm
You’re absolutely right. Sexually harassing women is a choice that men are free to not make — and if you don’t do it, then you don’t have to deal with the consequences. Good for you!
Lee August 14, 2013 @ 3:45 pm
What’s really interesting is the number of “false accusations” which prove to have been NOT so false further down the road. Women have been jailed for making a false accusation in cases where a man later confessed to the crime (after having been caught raping someone else). But of course, the proof that the accusation wasn’t false after all isn’t as much fun as the false-accusation lie was to begin with.
[…] This is pretty amazing. It basically sums up what happens when someone comes forward with a sexual harassment complaint. It also sums up the comments that you read under news articles about sexual assault. The comments remain in your head like a dormant virus that activates when sexual harassment occurs. Then, BAM: […]
Yep, A Man, Timothy and Ellen Wingrove, I agree with you.
Jim Hines doesn’t want any discussion of false/wrongful accusations on here, and since it’s his site he gets to make the rules. Please drop me a line if you’d like to chat about this.
GarrettC, thanks for pointing us to the “Can I Buy You A Coffee?” post. It does a great job of helping us see things from many women’s perspectives.
The comment you link to is an excellent illustration; thank you for highlighting it! I’d read the post the other day, but was daunted by the several thousand entries in the comment thread, so I wouldn’t have seen it otherwise.
[…] Some men get very upset when their privilege is challenged. They get angry, defensive, and dismiss the challenge for no rational reason. For example, they require much more evidence or proof from women then they would from men. […]
[…] First I want to start with a cartoon drawn by Jim C. Hines: […]
Kenn McD August 18, 2013 @ 4:16 pm
If 2% of items ordered are defective and you order twice as much then twice as many items are defective. However since you ordered twice as much it’s still 2%. Maybe you shouldn’t resort to math to support you argument. Just saying.
JLB August 18, 2013 @ 9:00 pm
our anti-sexual harassment class in the army in 1985…. told us everything we needed to know.
1) dont touch them.
2) never say anything to them that you wouldnt say to your mother.
that two minute block of instruction served me well over my life…. and the few times i dated co-workers. they asked ME.
so what if i might have missed out on some good relationships?… i’ve never had a sexual harassment charge, either.
I’m 100% against sexual harassment and agree we need to speak out against it and do more about it.
Part of doing more about it is reporting it to the police when it happens. I don’t think online accusations of specific people are the way to go. After the police are involved, then the media may pick up on it.
Example #1 is not good for the victim because A) it opens them up to libel and/or slander lawsuits and it’s its only their accusation with nothing else behind it that leaves them pretty vulnerable. And B) that the victim didn’t go to the police gives the accused the benefit of the doubt.
I know that even if the police gets involved some people will still make the same negative claims against the accuser, but the situation should still be reported. Even if it’s a he said/she said incident that likely won’t result in an arrest, if the person is doing it repeatedly and victims keep reporting it, those repeated reports involving the same person will eventually get noticed and believed. As the old saying goes, “Where there is smoke, there is fire.”
#2 I’ve seen happen in comics and it’s can very ugly, very fast. Innocent people were assumed to be the guilty party and were hurt by it. I stupidly got involved and it was one I had to grow up on.
And I know this might not be popular to say on this particular topic but the accused is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty as that’s the way our system has to work. Otherwise anybody can accuse anyone of anything (without evidence) and it becomes a trial by public opinion with those who automatically believe what they read leading the charge.
This video talks about why this is wrong (using appropriate Star Trek: TNG clips) http://youtu.be/4WA4qtemcUs in regards to P.Z. Myers/Shermer situation and I can’t really argue against it.
When it comes to sexual harassment claims the victim is going to be judged by what they say and how they say it, to everybody. It’s to their benefit to keep their comments focused on the facts (and not make assumptions) and not write/talk about it in an shrill/overly dramatic way. If the police are involved they probably shouldn’t be talking publicly about it at all, the press can get what you said from your statement to the police.
That said I do recognize that the police can’t be called on every walk by grope on a crowded con floor. I’ve no problem with women or men talking about their experiences of this happening multiple times at a particular convention and saying the convention should develop policies on this and have their security trained to deal with this matter. Plus the general ‘you’re an asshole if you don’t keep your hands to yourself’ message in hopes of changing some ongoing gropers and hopefully stopping any new people who show up from groping.
Yes, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. That’s our legal system. Which isn’t what’s being discussed here. Nor has anyone, as far as I’m aware, said that our system should be changed.
In an ideal world, reporting to the police would result in harassers facing consequences for their actions. But as you yourself note, the police can’t be called for every incident of harassment. And if you look around at how the police treat things like sexual assault, I hope you’ll see that what we have is very far from an ideal world. (Example: Did you see the story about the police department whose official policy was to assume that rape victims were lying?)
You’ve referred to Star Trek and comics in your argument. Have you been reading any of the real-world stories of people who have been harassed and tried to speak out about it?
Muccamukk
August 10, 2013 @ 8:37 pm
Exactly this. Every. #$&@ing. Time.
Kat
August 10, 2013 @ 8:48 pm
Recently, at least in on-line comments, I’ve noticed a shorter variation on this where someone (almost always IDed as a man, but sometimes as a woman) simply says, “I don’t believe you”. The only effective response I’ve found do far is to thank them for demonstrating why it’s so hard to report this stuff effectively.
Torrain
August 10, 2013 @ 8:56 pm
Thank you.
Ken Marable
August 10, 2013 @ 9:30 pm
It’s tragic, but you got it perfectly.
Ashleigh
August 10, 2013 @ 11:15 pm
It’s sad that these are the reactions. Each time you just victimise the victim and its almost, no it is saying sexual harassment is ok. ITs not.
John Samuel
August 11, 2013 @ 2:04 am
I wish that this wasn’t true. Well said sir.
Yep, A Man
August 11, 2013 @ 2:22 am
In box #1, Argument #2 is completely legitimate. #3 and #4 could potentially be legitimate.
In box #2, Argument #1 and #5 are completely legitimate.
Box #3 I’m good with.
Everyone has a right to make accusations and everyone has a right to defend themselves, in the law or in the court of public opinion. No matter how widespread or pernicious an action, assault or crime. I acknowledge that sexual harassment is a legitimate violation and threat, but victims or harassment are just as capable as non-victims of lying or slandering. Anyone that doesn’t believe this happens all the time is uninformed or ignorant.
I also find this “comic” to be sexist because it infers with its many gender references that only women can be victims of sexual harassment. Sexual harassment against men is on the rise because women are increasingly earning leadership roles in the workforce.
StaceyHH
August 11, 2013 @ 2:45 am
Wheeeee! We got the false accusation garbage, AND the “men are victims too” derailment all in the same response! Good time, good times.
Also, this comic didn’t infer anything. You inferred what it may or may not have implied.
Abhinav Jain (@abhinavjain87)
August 11, 2013 @ 3:16 am
Workforce? What? Did you miss out on the point of the comic? This is relating to sexual harassment at cons, which is far more prevalent and immediate than anything at a workplace. And I find YOUR argument sexist. It negatively portrays women in leadership roles as sexual harassers.
A Grown-Up Man
August 11, 2013 @ 5:22 am
It’s not hard to avoid being getting into these situations in the first place. If. You. Just. Try.
Abhinav Jain (@abhinavjain87)
August 11, 2013 @ 5:43 am
Really? Is that what you think? And how would qualify that as? Should a woman not wear a skirt? Should she not sit at a bar with friends? Is that what you would suggest? I’d suggest that you actually try and inform yourself on on how sexual harassment at cons happens. Often times its a guy who steps into a conversation and acts overly familiar or just generally acts like a lecher. If a woman is just minding her own business, whether walking down a corridor or having drinks/mean with friends, or whatever the situation is, no man has a right to invade her personal space. Even otherwise, its much more appropriate to err on the side of caution and control your impulses.
Frankly, if a man is… attracted to women in such situations and feels like acting on his impulses, he has no business being at the con.
The blame should never, ever be on the women because that is disrespectful and demeaning. Us men not being able to control what’s between our pants is our own damn fault, not the women. No one deserves to be sexually harassed because they “didn’t avoid getting into a situation in the first place”. Shit like that promotes rape culture.
Joris M
August 11, 2013 @ 7:49 am
I am not sure whether this is simply an illustration of Lewis’ Law, or a showing it is applicable in wider context. Either way 🙁
@ Jim thanks, great illustration of this horrible situation
Joris M
August 11, 2013 @ 7:54 am
My interpretation was that it was aimed at the behaviour of the harassers (don’t harass/creep and you will avoid these situations).
Of course I might be overly optimistic. @ A Grown-Up Man, some elaboration would be nice.
Elise Matthesen
August 11, 2013 @ 8:24 am
Yep, that’s pretty much how too many of those conversations go.
(There wasn’t anywhere in the comic to put “If you make one report, you are a ‘serial accuser,’ but one comic cannot contain everything. Just as well, probably.)
Jim C. Hines
August 11, 2013 @ 9:45 am
Correct. If more people, particularly men, would try to treat people with respect instead of as sexual objects, they could avoid creating situations where people are sexually harassed.
Jim C. Hines
August 11, 2013 @ 9:49 am
I believe you mean “implies,” not “infers.” Which is still a silly accusation, but at least get the terminology right.
Also, thank you for proving my point.
Timothy
August 11, 2013 @ 11:21 am
How is pointing out that false accusations do in fact occur, all too often and with devastating effect on the unfairly accused, “garbage”? This observation does not minimize legitimate instances of sexual harassment or assault. In fact, recognizing that this occurs is important to prevent unwarranted harm to falsely accused people when we start bringing the appropriate punishments down on actual abusers. While accusations should never be brushed aside they should be vetted, and any person found to be falsely accusing someone should face consequences. Not only do false accusations harm innocent people who are accused, they make it more difficult for actual victims to be heard.
Timothy
August 11, 2013 @ 11:33 am
I’d have to say that A Grown-Up Man’s comment is rather asinine whichever way he meant it. While Abbinay Jain has a rather ridiculously broad definition of “sexual harassment” (judging from his rant he thinks saying “Hi, you’re hot” is sexual harassment), he is correct that blaming a woman who is harassed because she “dressed provocatively” or “hung out in the wrong place” is stupid. If A Grown-Up Man was suggesting it was easy to avoid false accusations – well, again his logic fails. How do you protect yourself against false accusations? Short of having multiple cameras mounted on your body recording everything you say and do at all times that is.
Jim C. Hines
August 11, 2013 @ 11:37 am
Yes, false accusations do occur.
The problem is that *every* time someone tries to talk about sexual harassment and assault, which occurs far more often than false accusations, someone else — almost always a guy — comes along to change the focus of the conversation away from victims of sexual harassment.
There’s also the way the idea of false accusations is ridiculously overinflated and used, either deliberately or out of ignorance, to undermine every victim of harassment and assault who tries to speak up.
I blogged about false accusations a while back at http://www.jimchines.com/2010/07/false-rape-reports/ I’m not interested in derailing the conversation here by spending any more time on the topic.
Jim C. Hines
August 11, 2013 @ 11:38 am
We’re done talking about false accusations here. Further comments on the topic will be eaten by goblins.
Yep, A Man
August 11, 2013 @ 11:48 am
Oh, you got me, Jim! You’re so clever! I used “inferred,” instead of “implied!” Way to focus on the trivial rather than the “actual argument.” Sorry that I believe in something as insignificant as due process. I’m glad I could “prove your point” in such typical, misogynistic fashion. Because anytime a victim of harassment….(sorry, I meant, women at cons…because let’s face it, only women at cons get harassed) claims SHE was harassed, the person (I mean, MAN) should instantly be fired, dragged through the court of public opinion, drawn and quartered. To suggest otherwise–to come up with any kind of EXCUSE–is revolting and the person should be publicly shunned!
What tripe.
And, Abhinaav, your comment of me being sexist is ridiculous. I did not “negatively portray women in leadership roles as sexual harassers,” but noted that sexual harassment claims against women have risen because they’re assuming higher places in the workforce. Anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge about harassment knows that first and foremost it’s about “power.”
Lastly,I might not have implied or inferred this in my initial post, but I too have been a victim of sexual harassment. Yes, a MAN! While at UCLA, a female professor said she would not allow me to write a certain paper unless I slept with her. Of course, she did it with a smile, as if it was tongue in cheek, but the threat was implicit. I’ve also been groped by women, and gay men. And several times…wait for it…I was even hit on at a CON! Stop the presses! It must have been sexual harassment! Or maybe just someone looking to meet someone else at a function in which she thought we might have something in common. I am in no way suggesting this is reflective of any or every experience, only mine. I can only speak for me, unlike Jim. But, hey, it’s your blog, and you posted all the EXCUSES, so I must be wrong.
Or deleted, right, JIm? Was that implied? Or just inferred?
Jim C. Hines
August 11, 2013 @ 11:56 am
You need to go rant somewhere else. You’re done here.
LisaR
August 11, 2013 @ 12:15 pm
“It’s not hard FOR A MAN to avoid being getting into these situations in the first place. If. You. Just. Try.”
FTFY
Ya see, the way to avoid it is not to harrass. Period.
I’m a 50 year old woman who experienced much con harassment in my younger days – as recently as 2005, even. I was just standing and talking with a group of my friends, when a guy came up, grabbed my ass and ground his hips against me. We were all shocked. I was lucky – one of my friends was the con organizer, and called security over and had the guy removed from the event.
How could I have “tried” to avoid it? I guess you’d think I was dressed provocatively (which isn’t a reason anyway, but would be in your book.) Nope. I was wearing a nice dress that I’d worn to a wedding previously. I hadn’t even spoken to the guy. Nope. He just thought my bod was there for his entertainment.
This isn’t the only time things like this happened. It’s just the most recent.
Your argument is invalid.
Pfusand
August 11, 2013 @ 12:22 pm
Oh, of course, A Man.
Somehow, in your ever-so-careful reading here, you missed the fact that the scenario being portrayed is THE INITIAL ACCUSATION. This is not the end game here. This is the first step.
What you are saying, without admitting it, is that you do not want the first step to be taken.
For the attentive people in this conversation, I would like to point out that I learned (back in my first, general class in Law Enforcement in 1965) that the “false accusation” level for rape was the SAME as for other crimes — 3%.
Cdoring
August 11, 2013 @ 12:36 pm
You showed up in a forum connected to a comic that was making a point about harassment at cons, etc. specifically directed at women, and the typical reactions they receive. This happens EVERY FUCKING TIME this conversation takes place on the net. It is a derailing tactic used by some people hostile to the idea of change. Derailing a thread, even a tiny one like this, is going to expose you to abuse in the present climate.
That is disgusting what happened to you. Men get sexually harassed every day, I know this. I’ve experienced it myself. But the fact remains that it happens to women a whole HELL of a lot more, with the added benefit of fears of rape. When you are groped or unwelcomely hit on at a con or other such event, do you then spend the rest of your time at said event in a state of mild fear ranging up to borderline panic, depending on your own life experiences? I’m sorry, but as a man who has also experienced my fair share of aggressive, unwelcome advances(I’m happily married) from men and women both, I just don’t think it’s fair to equate the experiences unless you are a man who has experienced systematic, traumatizing sexual abuse. Even if you are, you should find a community that is made for discussing those experiences, not come in and discuss your trauma in a place it will be unwelcome and may contain triggers.
And to the others here who cry about evidence and false accusations… Outside of criminal proceedings, evidence is less important than protecting victims at this stage of the game. Yes, I do support outing abusers publicly, especially when there is corroboration, anonymous or not. The current climate online and in these communities demands drastic action to make the culture safe fir EVERYONE. That means pushing back HARD against the tide of bullshit emanating from all apologists, unintentional or not. That means believing the alleged victim first outright. Does it mean there will be false accusations and possibly ruined reps? Yes it does. Arrogant as it may be, that is an acceptable price to pay to change this culture of sexism.For me at least. Even if it means exposing myself. Change never comes without pain.
Ellen Wingrove
August 11, 2013 @ 12:37 pm
Please don’t discount false accusations. Remember the Duke Lacrosse case? They were completely innocent. A good freiend of mine while I was at Duke was the mother of one of the 3 arrested players, so I am intimately familiar with the pain of a false accusation. Guess where he works now? He’s a lawyer for the Innocence Project.
And my husband was falsely accused of worse – death threats. He just won a bunch of money from the accuser, who actually sued HIM. And rumor has it that she’s starting in on him again with rape allegations, also incredible lies. Be very careful – look at the facts. PZ Myers recent post is an example of anonnymous accusations. As a woman, I feel he is doing us a disservice. Shermer is probably a total pig, but I want to know the facts.
Job
August 11, 2013 @ 12:38 pm
@Yep A Man
Leesee …
— Sexually harassed by his professor in an academic setting.
— Sexually harassed at con.
— Groped, not once, but SEVERAL times.
— Groped by homosexual men.
— Groped by women.
What a panoply of assaults.
I do not agree with your general argument — if I understand it correctly — that no report of sexual harassment should be made, in general terms, on the internet.
Or perhaps that is not what you are saying because that’s what you yourself are doing.
However, I certainly agree with you that lots of people tell lies.
Ellen Wingrove
August 11, 2013 @ 12:39 pm
sorry for the misspellings – I’m using an ipad
A. Myint
August 11, 2013 @ 1:28 pm
“A Grown Up Man”, people like you are part of the problem: Here’s a better solution than your simple-minded BOYISH answer: How about we prosecute the scum that commit the crimes so other scum will think twice about committing the crimes? Note: If you actually have to tell people you’re “grown Up”, you’re not.
GarrettC
August 11, 2013 @ 1:41 pm
Saying, “Hi, you’re hot!” IS sexual harassment, if you’ve been asked not to say it and continue to do so.
And just casually going around saying it to people isn’t really you being complimentary, either.
Not a perfect analogy here, but a decent starter set for understanding: http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/
Erica
August 11, 2013 @ 3:08 pm
Like not going to a con? Like not working in a profession that’s dominated by males? By not going out at night? By not going anywhere without a muscle-bound, male escort?
It’s really sad that you’re putting it on the victim to prevent these things. This sounds like the shit they were telling us 30 years ago, when I was an undergrad. How about making the harassers responsible for their own behavior?
Erica
August 11, 2013 @ 3:22 pm
For crying out loud, no one said someone accused of harassment shouldn’t receive a fair hearing or due process. The cartoon focused on the issues an alleged victim faces when trying to go forward with a complaint. These are things that prevent “due process” from ever even taking place.
Skepchick.no | Når heltene faller
August 11, 2013 @ 4:40 pm
[…] “Sexual Harassment Conversations” av Jim C. Hines […]
Blag Hag Grab Bag 8/11/2013 » Blag Hag
August 11, 2013 @ 4:43 pm
[…] going to end on this comic from Jim C. Hines without […]
» Links of the Day – August 11, 2013
August 11, 2013 @ 7:30 pm
[…] C. Hines: Sexual Harassment Conversations in Comic Form. A current big deal in sci-fi, comic, and a variety of geek related circles. I’m glad it is […]
Amanda
August 11, 2013 @ 8:54 pm
I’m so confused by posts like this. If you’ve been sexually harassed I would think you’d understand why it’s important not to instantly shame people the moment they make an accusation (in fact, I bet men feel super embarrassed to report it too!). The point is that every accusation should be given due process, even if it is ultimately dismissed– but currently, for both men and women, the majority of accusations are met with the disbelief and harassment mentioned above. You’re… you’re kind of proving the point.
I think it was on a blog post here that I saw somebody honestly comment, “99% of accusations are legit, but we need to focus on the 1% and make sure nobody’s life is ruined by a false accusation.” I had to walk away from the computer.
Anyway, thanks for being spot-on as usual!
Eleventh Hour
August 11, 2013 @ 9:56 pm
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens when men such as John Scalzi, Jim Hines or P.Z. Myers are accused of sexual harassment.
Jim C. Hines
August 11, 2013 @ 11:17 pm
The assumption that men will *inevitably* be accused of sexual harassment says an awful lot about the one making the assumption.
Reacciones a una denuncia de acoso/agresión sexual
August 12, 2013 @ 6:24 am
[…] Reacciones a una denuncia de acoso/agresión sexual […]
Eli
August 12, 2013 @ 7:45 am
I don’t believe that you don’t believe me. Prove it.
Sarah
August 12, 2013 @ 8:31 am
That they understand that anonymous accounts are completely uncontrollable and unverifiable therefore the angry MRAs on the other side of this are going to have a field day?
Or that PZ Myers has already demonstrated that he only criticises abusers who *aren’t* his friends (and excuses Greg Laden for his violent and abusive messages – while *excoriating* his victim (Justin Griffith) – ironically for ‘Naming Names’ which PZ is normally in favour of, until it hits one of his own.)
Or were you implying something else…?
Elizabeth A. Mancz
August 12, 2013 @ 8:34 am
What sprung to my mind after reading the blog and comments was that if we live in a culture where multiple people feel that they can coerce another person to have sex with them with impunity, we have a major problem. And we need to do something about it. The first step is coming up with some way for people to feel that they can report such things freely. By that I mean they should feel that there is someone to whom they can report sexual harassment(or any other kind of harassment for that matter) without worrying about whether they will be criticized or not believed for doing so. Because if we do not know that the problem exists, how prevalent it is, or who exactly is affected, then we can’t do much to fix it. Once we have that, we can go on to the problems of how to deal with the accusation and the accused. But first we need to know what is happening.
Thanks for bringing the topic up. If we don’t talk about these things, we can’t even get to step one. It is obvious that a number of people find this topic unsettling and are trying to derail it. Please don’t. Yes, it is uncomfortable to talk about these things. But if we want to end sexual harassment (and other types of harassment) we have to talk about it.
Cdoring
August 12, 2013 @ 8:39 am
Eleventh Hour: Sure, because those guys have a long history of disgusting behavior at conferences. Unlike Michael Shermer, say? I’m certain someone will eventually make an “anonymous” accusation at PZ Myers to get revenge for him supporting a freind, something he acknowledge and accepted. And why would you throw Scalzi there? For basically saying, “Don’t be a dick.” Let me guess what your agenda might be?
Lila
August 12, 2013 @ 10:39 am
Both this thread and Myers’ blog are busily proving the hell out of Jim’s point.
EJensen
August 12, 2013 @ 12:45 pm
Love the comic. Thank you, Jim, so much for taking a stand.
PeterG
August 12, 2013 @ 3:47 pm
Interesting that this came up today. I just saw this TED talk. Apparently nobody wants to listen to whistle blowers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn5JRgz3W0o
As for me every time I hear that something bad has happened to someone I know my first reaction is to try to figure out what they did wrong or how they might be overreacting. I find it very hard to accept that a horrible senseless thing has happened.
Alan
August 12, 2013 @ 6:38 pm
“And I find YOUR argument sexist. It negatively portrays women in leadership roles as sexual harassers.”
Nonsense, it simply claims that sexual abuse is more common when the perp is in a position of power – therefore if more women are in a position of power, there will be more women perps. That’s not sexist, it’s simply stats.
Dude
August 12, 2013 @ 8:14 pm
[This comment munched up by a grumpy fire-spider. Because as we all know, Smudge loves junk food.]
Jim C. Hines
August 12, 2013 @ 8:20 pm
Unfortunately, it turns out that 93% of unsourced/uncited stats are utter crap.
Nunya Buisness
August 12, 2013 @ 9:46 pm
[Sorry, I think you want the troll convention three blogs over.]
JuliaJ
August 12, 2013 @ 10:36 pm
J Hines, thanks for stating the issue so graphically and succintly, and for being willing to cop the inevitable flak.
More strength to you.
Abhinav Jain (@abhinavjain87)
August 12, 2013 @ 11:37 pm
You are not giving any stats, sir. You are simply making a claim based on a vague precedent that since its always the men in power acting as sexual harassers, then the women in power will be as well. How does that equate? And in a tacit way, you kinda make the point anyway, that men in power DO abuse their responsibilities. No one’s denying that there aren’t women out there who engage in sexual harassment, but to make a blanket statement? That’s inappropriate, to say the least.
Amy
August 12, 2013 @ 11:48 pm
The responses in the comics are absolutely wrong.
They might come from a sense of powerlessness and shame; that the speaker doesn’t know how to react to the situation. So instead of educating themselves or merely being silent they deny it or get self-righteous.
Maybe teaching each other how to react (some of the links on this site have been great for that) would be a good thing.
Alan
August 12, 2013 @ 11:51 pm
“No one’s denying that there aren’t women out there who engage in sexual harassment”
This is exactly what myself, and “Yep, A Man” were saying. You admit there is some percentage of women who engage in these activities (the size is irrelevant), and we’re saying that as the number of women in power grows, the number of male victims (note: number, not percentage) will as well.
I don’t see what’s possibly wrong or offensive about that?
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 12:07 am
Let me put it this way to you. You own a store, and you know 2% of all items you order are defective. If you order twice as many items, you’ll get twice as many defective ones (sure, there may be some small random deviations, maybe 3.9% or 4.1% will be defective instead, it doesn’t matter). This is all we’re saying, and I really don’t know how this is a problem…
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 12:52 am
[Paraphrase of goblin-eaten comment: “I neither understand nor respect your boundaries, so I’m going to try to further derail the conversation by continuing to talk about this.”]
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 7:49 am
That’s not all Yep, A Man was saying. Trying to argue otherwise suggests you haven’t actually read his comments.
You’re arguing math, but not referring to any actual statistics. And the math you’re trying to present seems to be based on the assumption that harassment is all about a single variable, power, and that power is exclusively about one’s position in the workplace.
Copyleft
August 13, 2013 @ 8:37 am
Clearly, requiring evidence before accepting a claim is the height of misogyny, and I’d be astounded to find any so-called “skeptic” promoting such a hateful policy. You should always believe every accusation, take every claim at face value, and never, ever ask for evidence. Otherwise, what’s the point of being a skeptic?
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 8:46 am
Deleting a comment is one thing, but deliberately misrepresenting it through a misleading paraphrasing is dishonest and deceptive…
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 8:53 am
I set a boundary. You ignored it, and continued to try to talk about false accusations.
Feel free to show me where I’ve misrepresented anything.
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 8:54 am
Are you saying that it’s not easier for an employee to to get away with harassing an underling than a colleague? Really?
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 8:57 am
Um … no.
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 9:07 am
Excellent – we agree it’s easier to harass an underling (or that underlings are more vulnerable to harassment). Then, with all other factors held constant, an increase in the number of women managers will lead to an increase in the number of men harassed.
This is all I was ever saying – and I have no idea why this took so many posts to get to. OF course there are other factors at play, of course there are other issues involved etc etc. All I was objecting to was a denial of the above by Abhinav….
Abhinav Jain (@abhinavjain87)
August 13, 2013 @ 9:09 am
Flip it up. How many men are ALREADY in a position of authority over women? And I never denied it. You made a blanket statement and I countered it. You are STILL making a blanket statement.
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 9:15 am
Sure – a reduction in the number of men in power, if all other factors are held constant, will result in a reduced number of harassment incidents against women. In fact, I will go a step further, and say: When it is made harder for to against , less incidents of this will occur.
I really don’t know why saying that is so controversial……
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 9:19 am
Does “ignoring it” mean not completely acquiescing? I just want to clarify that I may even agree with you that false accusations are a non-issue – and a pre written post with solid, irrefutable links would make the case a lot more strongly than censorship.
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 9:36 am
This is not your space. You’ve ignored clearly-set boundaries. You’re continuing to do so.
I find it particularly ironic and troubling that you’re doing this in a discussion of sexual harassment.
Step back and think about your mindset here, your assumption that you shouldn’t have to respect the boundaries I’m setting on my own website. Look at your first question. After being told no, you come back with crap about “not completely acquiescing.”
And yes, it’s crap. When someone sets a boundary, you stop. Don’t like it? Tough. Don’t think it’s fair? Too bad. Think they “led you on” in some fashion? It doesn’t matter.
Short version: you will respect the boundaries I set here, or you will GTFO. There is no third option.
Alan
August 13, 2013 @ 9:42 am
Of course you can ban/delete whoever you want from your own website, and I will save you the trouble by leaving myself. Just know that your overzealous censorship campaign gives a bad name to the rest of the movement, and makes it easier for the mainstream to write us off….
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 9:45 am
Thank you for providing such a clear example of “Men who don’t get the concept of boundaries.”
It helps me to have examples to point to when we discuss issues of sexism and harassment.
Sheila
August 13, 2013 @ 10:24 am
ha! I saved a bookmark to that post last year, not because I wanted to keep it around as a reference for discussion about women getting hit on, but because I am an atheist and it is a nice parable for explaining why a person (like me) can get twitchy at yet another conversation about religion.
Pecunium
August 13, 2013 @ 10:43 am
Yep, a Man: You are wrong.
Not only wrong, but stupidly wrong. You don’t have that sort of requirement on any other offense. So what makes it different? Oh yeah, a woman is saying a man did something wrong to women.
That’s it. You might reply that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. This would be true if the claim of sexual harassment were extraordinary. It’s not. It’s too fucking ordinary.
But others have said it better than I can.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/what-do-you-do-when-someone-pulls-the-pin-and-hands-you-a-grenade/comment-page-1/#comment-662372
Miriam Pia
August 13, 2013 @ 10:44 am
The characters in the novel The Double Life of Tutweiler Buckhead do not commit sexual harrassment. Here is the link
http://sbpra.com/miriampia/.
Sexual harrassment can be so painfully blatant: basically if a man or woman makes it clear that progress or a job or help with getting to the next step in higher education is only possible if the woman has sex with someone who is in a position of power or authority over her, for example: that is sexual harrassment. Women can do that to men, but it is more common and better known to be done by men to women, but in some cases even to men. Usually one person is also older, but it is mainly the power position that does it.
Sexual harrassment can be mild or extreme. It is also true that individuals can react differently. If one woman finally gets a comment from a man and likes it, she won’t feel sexually harrassed but if a woman has had to already make her way through crowds of unfriendly but whistling men or guys making sleazy comments about her, only to get to work and have some older guy she doesn’t think is sexy say, “Hi sexy, glad you made it” (to work on time) she might well feel sexually harrassed.
Generational interpretations, culture and age group also influence whether or not people feel harrassed.
I just spent months involved in something where I realized that I was so glad to not be sexually harrassed but was really attracted to one of the men in the situation and felt a little stifled about not feeling free to say anything because we were making sure no one was sexually harrassed. It can make it like that.
Pecunium
August 13, 2013 @ 10:47 am
Because they don’t. The rate of false accusation is about the same as for any other crime. Implying (or as you do, flat out accusing) that women make them “all to often”, and that such accusations have “devastating effect” *is* minimizing sexual assault (as is the bullshit phrasing of, “legitimate instances of…”).
So,if you want to trot out the idea that ‘false accusations’ are rampant, you’d better have stats; and citation. Because I’ve read the DoJ reports (and a huge number of the one’s used by the MRM, and their fellow travellers, to support this poppycock you’re spouting)
Again, do you have this level of scrutiny for any other interpersonal crime?
No? Then extend the same level of credibility to those who are reporting this.
Pecunium
August 13, 2013 @ 10:50 am
Here’s skeptic 101 on this sort of accusation: You are looking at it backwards.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/what-do-you-do-when-someone-pulls-the-pin-and-hands-you-a-grenade/comment-page-1/#comment-662372
Jeannie S
August 13, 2013 @ 12:21 pm
Here’s the thing, no one is discounting false accusations. The Duke case was a horrible thing that should not have happened. The problem is not false accusations. The problem is, Duke or an equivalently horrible instance gets brought up.EVERY.time this subject is discussed. The false accusation is the default position on every occurence. Duke is the exception yet people make it the rule. It’s not.
The Velveteen Linkspam (13 Aug 2013) | Geek Feminism Blog
August 13, 2013 @ 12:46 pm
[…] Sexual Harassment Conversations, in Comic Form: Jim C. Hines hits the nail on the head with the responses women receive when reporting (or not reporting) sexual harassment [Warning: the comments contain exactly the apologia the comic is mocking] […]
Wendy
August 13, 2013 @ 2:02 pm
Loved this when I saw it – and then saw the false accusation meme hit 10 seconds after you tweeted it. Sigh.
On the plus side, I saw your post on the way home from a concom meeting (Chi-Fi) where the board unanimously voted to adopt an explicit anti-harassment policy and to work towards setting up procedures for reporting and appropriate action. Fully half the concom are women, most are significantly younger than my 46, and many are also signatory to the Scalzi Pledge. So I am still hopeful that cultural shifts are occurring.
Kaye
August 13, 2013 @ 3:04 pm
Thank you, again, Mr. Hines, for so frequently and accurately standing up in public and saying what we (the doubted, shamed, and criticized survivors of unwanted sexual attention and violence) cannot for so many reasons. You are incredibly brave for using your public position to try to make people understand the serious issues that society has surrounding sexual harassment and violence.
You are an inspiration.
Sally
August 13, 2013 @ 6:21 pm
Can I just say I love Jim for not only taking this seriously, and attempting to be part of the solution, but by having Smudge eat the trolls? It’s maybe even better than kittening!
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 7:02 pm
Smudge helps immensely, if only by keeping me in better humor when playing whack-a-troll 🙂
Jim C. Hines
August 13, 2013 @ 7:03 pm
That’s excellent news about Chi-Fi! I suspect there will always be reactionary bigots and people who are deliberately ignorant, but I also think momentum is moving in a positive direction.
ERose
August 13, 2013 @ 10:27 pm
It’s always interesting to me that the actual point of most troll comments in harassment threads is “you are wrong so you should shut up,” or at the very least “you are wrong so I should dictate what you talk about.” Or really “I don’t want you to say this, so I will try to make you shut up.”
The responses in the comic are too, really – attempts at silencing or attempts at dictating someone else’s speech.
What exactly do people think will happen if we talk about harassment? And why do they seem to think it’s worth so much energy to prevent?
Sara
August 14, 2013 @ 5:35 am
[“Don’t eat that, Smudge! That’s not candy. Those are troll droppings!“]
Homenzinhos por Trás da Tela « geisha metálica
August 14, 2013 @ 9:37 am
[…] fim, vou fechar com uma tirinha que saiu esses dias aí que exemplifica bem a […]
mythago
August 14, 2013 @ 10:46 am
Funny how the Copylefts of the world are perfectly happy to accept certain things without a shred of evidence – such as the comments hurled in panels #2 and #3, where the person talking about sexual harassment isn’t even accusing a named person of anything.
And funny (by which I mean “tedious and predictable”) how many people want to ignore those panels, because it bothers them to admit there’s a very ugly catch-22 here. If a woman claims she was harassed , we are supposed to treat her with the same hostility and doubt as if she’d said she was kidnapped and probed by sentient interstellar dinosaur-people. But if she tries to offer, as evidence, the name of the specific harasser, well then, she’s dragging an innocent person’s name through the mud, and she should be shouted down no matter what.
I mean, look at Rene Walling’s harassment at ReaderCon. There was no dispute about what happened. And yet it was a shitstorm of people minimizing and outright lying about the (very public) facts to try and say that the accusations were overblown and maybe fake and why can’t we all just STFU and move on.
Lee
August 14, 2013 @ 3:38 pm
You’re absolutely right. Sexually harassing women is a choice that men are free to not make — and if you don’t do it, then you don’t have to deal with the consequences. Good for you!
Lee
August 14, 2013 @ 3:45 pm
What’s really interesting is the number of “false accusations” which prove to have been NOT so false further down the road. Women have been jailed for making a false accusation in cases where a man later confessed to the crime (after having been caught raping someone else). But of course, the proof that the accusation wasn’t false after all isn’t as much fun as the false-accusation lie was to begin with.
A Sexual Harassment Comment | Scientific Femanomaly
August 15, 2013 @ 12:25 am
[…] This is pretty amazing. It basically sums up what happens when someone comes forward with a sexual harassment complaint. It also sums up the comments that you read under news articles about sexual assault. The comments remain in your head like a dormant virus that activates when sexual harassment occurs. Then, BAM: […]
Jeffrey Deutsch
August 15, 2013 @ 8:09 pm
Yep, A Man, Timothy and Ellen Wingrove, I agree with you.
Jim Hines doesn’t want any discussion of false/wrongful accusations on here, and since it’s his site he gets to make the rules. Please drop me a line if you’d like to chat about this.
GarrettC, thanks for pointing us to the “Can I Buy You A Coffee?” post. It does a great job of helping us see things from many women’s perspectives.
SunflowerP
August 15, 2013 @ 10:54 pm
The comment you link to is an excellent illustration; thank you for highlighting it! I’d read the post the other day, but was daunted by the several thousand entries in the comment thread, so I wouldn’t have seen it otherwise.
Sunflower
Why Can’t I Have A He-Man Woman Hater Atheist Club? | Doug's Views
August 16, 2013 @ 11:01 am
[…] Some men get very upset when their privilege is challenged. They get angry, defensive, and dismiss the challenge for no rational reason. For example, they require much more evidence or proof from women then they would from men. […]
Sexual Harassment Conversations | Feminist Philosophers
August 16, 2013 @ 5:27 pm
[…] Perfect. Thanks, R! […]
Gesprekken over seksuele intimidatie | De Zesde Clan
August 17, 2013 @ 5:32 am
[…] Voor bron en meer conversaties, zie hier. […]
Female Heroines and Sexual Harassment
August 18, 2013 @ 1:16 pm
[…] First I want to start with a cartoon drawn by Jim C. Hines: […]
Kenn McD
August 18, 2013 @ 4:16 pm
If 2% of items ordered are defective and you order twice as much then twice as many items are defective. However since you ordered twice as much it’s still 2%. Maybe you shouldn’t resort to math to support you argument. Just saying.
JLB
August 18, 2013 @ 9:00 pm
our anti-sexual harassment class in the army in 1985…. told us everything we needed to know.
1) dont touch them.
2) never say anything to them that you wouldnt say to your mother.
that two minute block of instruction served me well over my life…. and the few times i dated co-workers. they asked ME.
so what if i might have missed out on some good relationships?… i’ve never had a sexual harassment charge, either.
Jamie Coville
August 19, 2013 @ 3:01 am
I’m 100% against sexual harassment and agree we need to speak out against it and do more about it.
Part of doing more about it is reporting it to the police when it happens. I don’t think online accusations of specific people are the way to go. After the police are involved, then the media may pick up on it.
Example #1 is not good for the victim because A) it opens them up to libel and/or slander lawsuits and it’s its only their accusation with nothing else behind it that leaves them pretty vulnerable. And B) that the victim didn’t go to the police gives the accused the benefit of the doubt.
I know that even if the police gets involved some people will still make the same negative claims against the accuser, but the situation should still be reported. Even if it’s a he said/she said incident that likely won’t result in an arrest, if the person is doing it repeatedly and victims keep reporting it, those repeated reports involving the same person will eventually get noticed and believed. As the old saying goes, “Where there is smoke, there is fire.”
#2 I’ve seen happen in comics and it’s can very ugly, very fast. Innocent people were assumed to be the guilty party and were hurt by it. I stupidly got involved and it was one I had to grow up on.
And I know this might not be popular to say on this particular topic but the accused is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty as that’s the way our system has to work. Otherwise anybody can accuse anyone of anything (without evidence) and it becomes a trial by public opinion with those who automatically believe what they read leading the charge.
This video talks about why this is wrong (using appropriate Star Trek: TNG clips) http://youtu.be/4WA4qtemcUs in regards to P.Z. Myers/Shermer situation and I can’t really argue against it.
When it comes to sexual harassment claims the victim is going to be judged by what they say and how they say it, to everybody. It’s to their benefit to keep their comments focused on the facts (and not make assumptions) and not write/talk about it in an shrill/overly dramatic way. If the police are involved they probably shouldn’t be talking publicly about it at all, the press can get what you said from your statement to the police.
That said I do recognize that the police can’t be called on every walk by grope on a crowded con floor. I’ve no problem with women or men talking about their experiences of this happening multiple times at a particular convention and saying the convention should develop policies on this and have their security trained to deal with this matter. Plus the general ‘you’re an asshole if you don’t keep your hands to yourself’ message in hopes of changing some ongoing gropers and hopefully stopping any new people who show up from groping.
Jim C. Hines
August 20, 2013 @ 9:38 am
Jamie,
Yes, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. That’s our legal system. Which isn’t what’s being discussed here. Nor has anyone, as far as I’m aware, said that our system should be changed.
In an ideal world, reporting to the police would result in harassers facing consequences for their actions. But as you yourself note, the police can’t be called for every incident of harassment. And if you look around at how the police treat things like sexual assault, I hope you’ll see that what we have is very far from an ideal world. (Example: Did you see the story about the police department whose official policy was to assume that rape victims were lying?)
You’ve referred to Star Trek and comics in your argument. Have you been reading any of the real-world stories of people who have been harassed and tried to speak out about it?
Christopher Becker
August 20, 2013 @ 12:34 pm
Where’s the option where she goes to the police?
Link Love (2013-08-20) | Becky's Kaleidoscope
August 20, 2013 @ 12:58 pm
[…] Sexual Harassment Conversations, in Comic Form – Jim C. Hines […]