Crap People Say About Sexual Harassment
From various posts and conversations around the internet…
“If you obviously can’t handle the social interactions at an SF Book con, then perhaps you need to seek some education … I suggest that you never, ever leave the confines of white, educated middle class North American society. In Nigeria and Saudi Arabia they take people like you and kill them with rocks.”
- The assumption that “people like you” are treated even worse in some other part of the world does not mean you should just shut up and accept how you’re treated here.
- If we’re taking “people like you” to mean “women,” then guess what — white, middle class North Americans kill an obscene number of women too.
- I suppose harassment and even assault could technically be defined as “social interactions,” but trying to normalize this kind of behavior and suggest that anyone who isn’t tough enough to take it should just stay away? Yeah, bite me.
“…during my freshman year in college, I knew two women who’d been raped, and a third who was probably raped but was too drunk to know for sure (that was in a fraternity basement). At the same time, I never heard about a woman being raped at a con.”
- See response 1, above. The fact that you perceive things to have been worse at your college does not, by definition, mean that things at a con are all fine and dandy.
- The fact that you’ve never heard of a woman being raped at a con does not mean it’s never happened. (It may just mean you’re not paying attention.)
“There are several Learning Disorders and Behavior Disorders that affect a man’s ability to understand body language … Some guys are just creeps but some have a true social disorder.”
- I should ask my therapist about this one, because I’m very curious what kind of social disorder causes a man to:
- Selectively target women to invade their personal space and touch them without permission.
- Ignore verbal boundaries set by women, but pick up on the unstated message right away when a man steps in to “protect” the woman.
- Maintain socially normal relationships with men and with women who aren’t in his “target” demographic.
- See Rose Lemberg’s post “Enough with the Aspie Bit Already!”
“Is flirting at cons now forbidden? When does flirting become harassment?”
- Things people should have learned in kindergarten:
- Respect.
- Keep your hands to yourself.
- No means no.
- If you seriously can’t tell the difference between flirting and harassment, I strongly suggest you do neither until you’ve worked that out.
“Is a convention committee obligated to provide a Utopian space throughout the convention? Should the convention committee have some sort of thought and action police, empowered to pull badges at the merest whisper of complaint?”
- No. Which is why nobody’s asking for this.
- Does anyone else think that equating a space where there are rules against harassment, and those rules are enforced to some kind of impossible Utopia is just depressing as hell?
“Their eagerness to see and punish harassment worries and befuddles me.”
- And your eagerness to ignore and accept harassment terrifies me.
Daniel D. Webb
September 13, 2012 @ 10:24 am
I’m a bit of a houseplant and don’t get out all that much. I’ve only been to one con personally. So I have to ask: do people actually say these things? In person? You expect this kind of insane troll logic on the internet from tools who are only fishing for a reaction. Jeez, it’s depressing how far we still have to go.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 10:27 am
These quotes were taken from various online discussions, and as far as I can tell, were intended seriously, not as trolling. But yes, people do say this stuff in person as well.
Bill Olander
September 13, 2012 @ 10:42 am
Seeing stuff like this just depresses me.
What’s worse is that on reading that first quote (out of context) I honestly thought that it was referring to the people doing the harassing and not the people being harassed.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 10:45 am
It depresses me too. But it helps a little that, from what I’m seeing, a lot of other people find these responses unacceptable too. I’m hopeful that this is a sign of progress.
Dr. NerdLove
September 13, 2012 @ 10:47 am
Yes, people say these things in real life and all over the damned place. The idea of “creep-shaming” – women maligning men as being “creepy” regardless of reality – is starting to crop up all over online, usually after someone talks about sexual harassment or dudes getting creepy on women.
The dismissal of the arguments – “I’ve never seen it”, “It’s so much worse in X so you have nothing to complain about”, “But what about the socially awkward/Aspies/etc.” all carry the same underlying message: “My right to your body is greater than your right to your own safety.”
Shea
September 13, 2012 @ 10:51 am
I am horrified at the notion that expecting people to follow the law of their city/state regarding harassment is mashed to the level of ‘Utopia’ (or in their mind dystopia). Instead of, you know, what non-gross people do every single day of their lives.
Actually, I’m equally horrified by all the comments.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 10:56 am
“What, you want us to try to create some sort of ‘Utopian’ space where people don’t just randomly shoot you in the face with a bazooka? That’s crazy talk!”
Laurie Mann
September 13, 2012 @ 10:56 am
Don’t take people out of context like that. Also, making comments anonymous by people who signed their names to them is as bad as the people who are republishing material from private lists in public places anonymously.
The whole paragraph of what I said mattered, and I posted it in my blog under my name. No Longer the World’s Slowest Blog: They Said/They Said and Plunging All Fandom Into War (http://nolongerslowblog.blogspot.com/2012/09/she-saidhe-said-and-plunging-all-fandom.html)
FULL QUOTE:
When I got involved, there weren’t that many women in fandom. However, I always felt very safe in fandom. I can think of a couple of times having long discussions with men, sometimes in their hotel rooms during SF conventions. A few of them came onto me – a kiss, a grope, whatever. I said no, and we just resumed our conversation. No meant no, but an unwanted kiss did not mean I’d just been raped. Fannish men were smart, right? Fannish women knew how to stand up for themselves, right? By contrast, during my freshman year in college, I knew two women who’d been raped, and a third who was probably raped but was too drunk to know for sure (that was in a fraternity basement). At the same time, I never heard about a woman being raped at a con.
END QUOTE
I was talking about the mid-70s. And, yes, I said “I never heard about a woman being raped at a con” and not “There never was a woman raped at a con” I understand the difference. Certainly, women have been harassed, groped, maligned, et.c. at cons because I both saw that happen to others and experienced that myself.
I can’t speak for everyone who has been involved in these discussions, but, speaking of this year’s Readercon harassment issue, I believe the woman in question at Readercon was right, and the man was wrong. Still, I don’t believe what he did was worthy of being thrown out of all cons and in being lied about the way he has been.
We need to discuss these issues reasonably and without all the invective and hyperbole that’s been attached to this issue by third parties.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 10:57 am
I hadn’t come across “creep-shaming,” but it follows the same pattern we see with rape, where for some people the priority isn’t ending rape, but protecting guys from all of the false accusations they believe are so rampant.
Wendy
September 13, 2012 @ 11:00 am
My husband couldn’t understand why I was all worked up over something like this – I told him to envision being at a convention full of extremely forward gay men. And to imagine that these men were constantly talking about how awesome dick tastes, how much they’d like to do things to/with my husband and the other straight guys there, and how they’d totally make him gay for them because they are that amazingly sexy. And to imagine these men constantly trying to find ways to touch him – both “accidental” brushes in a crowd and more blatant crotch-grabs. And imagine they are NOT willing to read any social cues whatsoever, and flat-out anything my husband says or does to indicate he’s straight.
Then try to transfer that experience to being female at some of the science fiction conventions I’ve been at. I don’t stay out at Dragon*Con once the parties start in the evenings because I’m sick of getting grabbed at – and I’m not all that attractive and I don’t wear revealing costumes. But I shouldn’t be harassed even if I were!
(Before anyone jumps on me for vilifying gay men, I’ll point out here that none of the behavior I mentioned above is exaggerated in any way from what I have personally witnessed straight guys doing. I assume there are gay guys who do this as well – heterosexuals can’t have a monopoly on boorishness.)
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 11:01 am
“Also, making comments anonymous by people who signed their names to them is as bad as the people who are republishing material from private lists in public places anonymously.”
Right…
I kept it anonymous because I didn’t want:
a) People running over to troll my blog.
b) People running over to people’s blogs to attack them for what they said.
As for the full paragraph, that really doesn’t improve what you’re saying, nor does it undercut my response.
I’m glad you felt safe. Seriously. That’s a good thing. I feel safe at conventions too, for the most part. That’s great for me! It doesn’t mean I can use my sense of personal safety to minimize or undercut the feelings of others who don’t share that safety.
Laurie Mann
September 13, 2012 @ 11:09 am
I don’t like seeing sexual harassment equated to rape. And that’s what caused me to write the way I did. Sexual harassment is a nuisance and can leave you feeling unsafe, and some cons do have specific rules against that. But are you saying you believe that sexual harassment and rape are the same thing? Because that’s what some people seem to be saying.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 11:10 am
No, I’m not saying that.
I also disagree with your minimizing sexual harassment as a “nuisance.”
C.D.
September 13, 2012 @ 11:27 am
Sexual harassment is not rape, but sexual harassment is part of rape culture, so discussing it in the context of rape is actually perfectly reasonable.
And as someone who has been sexually harassed, I HIGHLY disagree with your description of sexual harassment as a “nuisance.”
Lani
September 13, 2012 @ 11:28 am
I was groped at the age of twelve. I was shy, and extremely embarrassed about the changes my body was making-growing breasts, starting menstruation. The groping has stayed with me for over a decade and a half. For my husband and I to have sex, I need enough foreplay time for the lust to be stronger than the paranoia. Understand that? My husband, someone I trust utterly and completely, cannot touch me without permission because it makes me freak out. All because of one incident-from a child younger than I was-in my past. That harassment is just a “nuisance”. Sure. Next you’ll be bullshitting us about “legitimate rape”.
Laurie Mann
September 13, 2012 @ 11:31 am
If my comments about sexual harassment are crap, isn’t that also minimizing? I’ve experienced harassment at cons, but my response has been to walk away or laugh in his face.
So where does sexual harassment fall? Different people are going to have different reactions to it. To equate it to rape as some people have is just plain wrong, and that’s what I’ve been reacting to.
I agree that harassment at cons and in fandom is a problem, but the response to the Readercon man has been, frankly, ludicrous. We need to discuss these things in a rational way, and I can’t say I’ve seen much of that. I would hope we’d be smarter than that.
Phire
September 13, 2012 @ 11:36 am
Sexual harassment is absolutely on the continuum of “violating behaviour” that leads to rape. Minimizing sexual harassment as being just a “nuisance”–like a broken AC or not enough chairs–perpetuates a culture and environment in which disrespecting the personal boundaries of someone else in order to fulfill your own sexual urges is considered “no big deal”.
One can have issues with Readercon’s initial policy, but they were the ones who set that policy, and once that policy has been broken, it absolutely needs to be 100% enforced. The time for revising policy is not after someone has made an accusation against someone that people sorta like and well maybe we don’t punish him as hard this time because it wasn’t that bad really.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 11:36 am
“If my comments about sexual harassment are crap, isn’t that also minimizing?”
This seems to follow the same line of reasoning that calling people on racism is discriminatory and just as bad as being racist.
I’d describe my use of the word crap as derogatory, not minimizing.
“I’ve experienced harassment at cons, but my response has been to walk away or laugh in his face.”
I’m glad that’s worked for you.
“To equate it to rape as some people have is just plain wrong, and that’s what I’ve been reacting to.”
Okay. And I disagree with some of the things you’ve said as a part of that reaction. I find some of your statements to be insulting, minimizing, misguided, and/or flat-out wrong.
Phire
September 13, 2012 @ 11:37 am
No one has a problem with how you handle your personal experience with sexual harassment. We have a problem in your apparent belief that your response is the response everyone else should have, and that anyone who reacts differently is “ludicrous” or else engaging in bad faith.
LauraA
September 13, 2012 @ 11:41 am
All this talk about the atmosphere of today’s cons sure makes me sentimental for the Fantasy Worlds con (Darkover) I attended back in ’83… Marion Zimmer Bradley, Octavia Butler, Katherine Kurtz, etc., reading in small rooms and doing panels; Misty Lackey as yet unpublished, running the registration desk. Lots of great female energy, plus the men who were comfortable with that…
Elizabeth
September 13, 2012 @ 11:42 am
::jawdrop::
“…during my freshman year in college, I knew two women who’d been raped, and a third who was probably raped but was too drunk to know for sure…”
1. Only two women? That is an astonishingly very low rate — almost 25 percent of college women have been victims of rape or attempted rape since the age of 14 (Fisher, Cullen and Turner (2000), based on the extrapolation of a six-month data set. Also see Koss, Gidycz and Wisniewski (1987) for similar results. — assuming you knew more than 8 women. Which may, you know, be the problem if you don’t know any women.
2. If she was too drunk to “know for sure,” she was too drunk to give meaningful consent. How is this difficult to understand? (What the hell does “know for sure” refer to, anyway?)
(“You” throughout referring to the original poster, not Jim. Obviously.)
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 11:46 am
“If she was too drunk to “know for sure,” she was too drunk to give meaningful consent.”
This.
Muccamukk
September 13, 2012 @ 11:58 am
If we’re going by anacdata, I did not know anyone who was raped at my college while I was there, but someone was raped at the last con I went to.
Trigger Warning for rape and sexual harrassment
Thanks for the post, Jim. It’s nice to have allies.
Michael Handler
September 13, 2012 @ 12:05 pm
And many people don’t like seeing sexual harassment minimized and blown off as regrettable but something that people (women) just need to learn to live with. And that’s why people are pushing back so strongly against what you’ve written.
Sexual harassment isn’t rape. But sexual harassment *is* a core part of rape culture. It’s the kindling that keeps the idea going that someone (a woman) exists to be gazed at, desired as an object, manipulated, and their desires and autonomy and personhood ignored.
Not every harassing incident becomes rape or leads to rape or means that the harasser would or has raped. But it contributes to the culture of making women feel unsafe and withdraw from public spaces, to victim blaming, to authorities failing to prosecute rapes, to social groups failing to remove people from their ranks who have shown repeatedly that they’ll violate someone’s autonomy and boundaries.
You can’t extricate these things from each other. They’re on a gradual slope of increased pressure and normalization that leads people (and groups and society) to minimize and tolerate actual horrific physical assaults.
Nobody is seriously expecting that all rape can be stopped, forever, at some point, somehow. But it *is* in our power to stop rape culture — end the normalization of boundary violations (even when it’s “just” suggestive comments or a hand on your arm), and hammer home that awareness, consent and respect are fucking critical aspects of being a moral human being. That’s it’s not the responsibility of people (women) to avoid creepers, touchers, or rapists — it’s the responsibility of people to stop creeping, inappropriately touching, or raping.
And because we live in a culture that has tacitly or explicitly normalized ignoring boundaries and consent for so long, for those people who haven’t yet learned or re-learned to be decent respectful humans need to be watched for and policed appropriately and re-educated when they cross the line. And if they can’t do that yet or ever… Then they need to be excluded from public groupings and gatherings, and have their behavior pushed back against. Both to protect other people, but also to send a clear signal that rape culture Doesn’t Live Here.
And that starts (but doesn’t stop) with “just” catcalling on the street, or following people around at conventions and touching them and talking to them when they have told you in no uncertain terms to Stop.
Lindsay
September 13, 2012 @ 12:15 pm
But are you saying you believe that sexual harassment and rape are the same thing? Because that’s what some people seem to be saying.
Laurie — can I ask you who you believe to be saying that? I’ve been following these discussions in several different fora (as a lurker only), and I have not seen that kind of language applied to the person in question, or to the behavior in question. I have seen the issue of rape brought up as an additional very important question which lies along the same continuum of behavior, but I have not seen anyone saying “well, we need to handle this in exactly the same way we would a rape.”
I realize that this is optimistic of me, but I would like to think that the response of any convention to an attendee saying they were raped would be, essentially, “We are going to notify hotel security and call the police now.” The question of whether harassment should be similarly handled is an open one; saying “perhaps we should adjudicate harassment using external enforcement* rather than trying to have some kind of community-based intervention” is NOT the same thing as saying “harassment is the same thing as rape.”
*Side note: this was Rose Fox’s message in her “conventions as businesses” post, by the way. I am sick of people saying that “perhaps we should look at this as a business would” as saying “oh, that means we’re just doing this for money and that is the opposite of what fandom is”. That is not a binary goddamn choice.
Shea
September 13, 2012 @ 12:20 pm
I was far more dismayed by the entirety of your post (read earlier this week) than this ‘out of context’ bit. Especially when your answer to a commenter who said his wife has been repeatedly harassed was “[name], we were talking about rape.”, as if her many negative experiences somehow didn’t rise to the occasion of being upset, or wishing to have a modicum of control over your own body. And when another commenter told you outright that she was sexually assaulted twice, the newest one being at the most recent con, your response was tantamount to saying you hadn’t had any unwelcome contact for a long time, conveniently forgetting it’s not about *you*. It’s about the person who was victimized.
If this whole cluster*(%$£ has shown anything, it’s that the concept of ‘taking care of it internally’ is a joke. If a person is harassed at a con, they should call the police. Maybe if the harassers spend an evening in the local jail, they’ll get it through their heads that their actions have consequences. Because as the multitude of deniers and apologists above have shown, they will receive little justice from ‘their own’.
Michael Handler
September 13, 2012 @ 12:21 pm
He wasn’t thrown out of “all cons”, he was banned from Readercon, where he had been specifically seen violating their anti-harassment policies.
If he has learned from this experience not to violate boundaries and harass people, there are plenty of other cons he can go to in the future. If he hasn’t, and he violates con harassment policies there and eventually runs out of cons to go to, or gets a communal reputation that he should actually be globally disinvited from all cons, then he’s shown he can’t be allowed into shared spaces. Either way, problem solved.
rcs
September 13, 2012 @ 12:29 pm
The social disorder and behavioral excuse really ticks me off. As a woman with severe social and general anxiety disorder, I get laughed at for being socially inept. (Except the times that I somehow turn invisible.) Yet, I am supposed to give the socially awkward man a pity pass for his behavior?!? This has been a ludicrous them running through this past year’s feminism discussions.
Social disorders are real and painful and life limiting and I get so angry when people use the labels as cover for arrogance and self-centeredness and immaturity.
Except in extreme disabling cases, having a mental health disorder or neurological abnormality is not a get out of jail card for routine bad behavior. They are conditions to be managed or accommodated or coped with like any other disability. Yes, there are occasions when you feel out of control. If they happen often, perhaps you need to adopt some new coping skills or try a different medication if you take any.
And by the way Jim, congratulations on your Hugo fan writer award. Posts like this one are why we appreciate your advocacy!
Amber Love
September 13, 2012 @ 12:41 pm
We discussed this problem on my latest podcast episode Vodka O’Clock. It should not matter whether or not I’ve been assaulted in the past. It should not matter what I was wearing. It should not matter that I was alone. Yet, all of those things go through my mind when I’m attending a convention. Sometimes it’s nice to explore a new adventurous hall filled with colleagues and books and cosplayers on my own but all anyone can say is, “stick with a buddy.”
Michael W Lucas
September 13, 2012 @ 12:46 pm
I’m one of those people with a (very mild degree of) mental disability that reduces my ability to read body language. But such a disability is not a reason to be a creep, period, end.
If you know a friend who uses this as an excuse: don’t let them get away with it. Polite behavior can be learned and practiced.
At a con, avoid being within arm’s reach another person. If you’re that close, keep your hands at your side or folded in front. (I wave my hands when I get into a discussion, but even then, I keep them close.)
I mention that I’m married and make sure that people can see my wedding ring. I don’t follow unless I’m invited.
If someone wants to give me a hug? They will take a step towards me and open their arms. Their call, not mine. I’m unable to determine if a hug is desired by more subtle body language, so I’m not allowed to make that call.
If you’ve had a nice time talking with someone? Offer to shake their hand once, at the end of the weekend. Not every time you see them during the weekend, but at the end. One time.
If you have this kind of disability, and you error on the side of civility, you’ll make a far better impression on people than you ever will by being forward, by trying to act like people without this kind of problem. And if you say “I had a great time talking to you, can I call you sometime?” you’ll have a better chance of getting a positive response.
I have no doubt that I’ve screwed up repeatedly, that I’ve made someone feel uncomfortable, and had no clue doing it. But with my hands to myself and not following people, I hope I come across more as “hapless dork” than “creep.”
I don’t care how bad your level of this kind of mental disability is. It’s no excuse. Stop making life hard for others who share your problem.
Lindsay
September 13, 2012 @ 1:08 pm
(Addendum: “We are going to call the police now” would be accompanied by lots of supportive, caring words, obviously. But there would (again, I hope I hope) be no attempt to adjudicate the rape accusation beyond “we are going to call the police now”, and possibly ejecting the offender from the con. Which, despite lots of hemming and hawing and concern about lawsuits, is perfectly within the rights of the sponsoring organization to do.)
Delux
September 13, 2012 @ 1:12 pm
“I’ve experienced harassment at cons, but my response has been to walk away or laugh in his face.”
Its great that has worked for you, but it doesnt work for everyone. Sometimes laughing in his face means the harasser will become more persistent, angry, or even violent. And sometimes walking away just means a woman will get followed to wherever she goes next.
Steve C
September 13, 2012 @ 1:16 pm
Well said.
Kathleen
September 13, 2012 @ 1:24 pm
I’m working toward a degree in forensic science, and one of the classes talks about the psychology of sexual assault. An important point that people who say that rape and harassment are not equivalent are missing is this thing called escalation. This means that much of the time a person (usually a man) who begins a pattern of anti social behavior, such as sexual harassment, will escalate (increase the inappropriateness level of his behavior) as long as he is successful in getting away with it. Note that this does not apply to every man or every situation, but there is enough of a pattern here that it is a legitimate concern for law enforcement. Therefore, “warning” behaviors such as peeping, groping, and aggressive and persistent sexual advances can be the forerunners to even worse behavior, such as rape, if they are left unchecked or if there is a perception of official permissiveness towards these types of things.
Rose Fox
September 13, 2012 @ 1:41 pm
Hi Lindsay,
I appreciate the kind words about my post! That said, I do not feel that “We are going to call the police” as a flat statement is ever an appropriate response to a report of rape, because that approach could be quite traumatizing for the person who has been raped. Rape survivors are often questioned very aggressively by people in positions of authority; it’s one of the more reprehensible aspects of rape culture. Any sort of anonymity the person might have in the convention context goes out the window when people see the cops showing up and talking with them. In addition, it’s really not kind to tell someone who’s just had their emotional and physical boundaries violated that you are now in control of what happens to them, no matter how good your intentions are. One of the most important things you can do in that situation is emphasize how much you care about the person giving explicit consent before you take action involving them.
I believe a more thoughtful and appropriate response would be along these lines: “Thank you for telling me this. I will hold it in complete confidence unless you give me permission to share it with specific people. Do you need medical care?” If they do: “We can help you get to a local hospital and someone will stay with you to make sure they treat you respectfully and take evidence in case you decide that you want to involve law enforcement. It’s up to you whether we call an ambulance or drive you there ourselves.” If they don’t: “Okay. If you decide later that you do, just let me know.” And only after that: “Are you willing to reveal the name of the person who assaulted you? If you are, we can arrange to have them discreetly removed from the convention and the hotel. That’s not someone we want to have around. Do you want to involve law enforcement? If you do, we can call them for you or sit with you while you call them and talk to them. If you need company at any time, day or night, call this number. If you need space to be alone, we’ll make that happen–with a guard outside your door if that would help. Just let us know how we can help you feel safe and cared for here.”
tracy
September 13, 2012 @ 1:43 pm
QUOTE
A few of them came onto me – a kiss, a grope, whatever. I said no, and we just resumed our conversation. No meant no, but an unwanted kiss did not mean I’d just been raped.
END QUOTE
No, but it is assault. You may not have wanted to pursue it as such, but let’s at least call it what it is.
Vicki
September 13, 2012 @ 1:57 pm
OK, Laurie, context. (By the way, your link is broken because it uses the original name of that post, not the revised one.)
In the discussion thread on that post, people told you about rapes at cons, and you acknowledged that. But your comment here implies, not that you hadn’t previously heard about it, but that you still haven’t. Your comment gives me the impression that you will acknowledge harassment and groping, because you experienced it yourself or saw it directly, but are not acknowledging rapes that you didn’t hear about at the time, or that occurred at cons you didn’t attend. Can you see where that is diminishing?
John
September 13, 2012 @ 2:00 pm
where he had been specifically seen violating their anti-harassment policies.
And admitted to doing so, I will point out.
And then, at Worldcon, repeating the same behaviour.
(Sorry about the duplicate comment down below. A lack of javascript meant the original reply didn’t go to the comment I was trying to reply to.)
[No problem. I’ve removed the duplicate. -Jim]
vk
September 13, 2012 @ 2:15 pm
“probably raped but was too drunk to know for sure…”. 10 words. No context.
Maybe she was “too drunk to know if anything happened at all”? As in “I passed out on a couch at a frat, and plenty of guys had opportunity, but I have no memory or physical evidence anything happened, and I don’t know if some guy took my shirt off or if I did it myself because I was trying to get comfortable”.
She took the shirt off herself, nothing happened. Some guy did it, it may have been an attempted rape.
You tell me who’s guilty of what here. I sure as hell can’t tell based on an entire 10 words.
Lindsay
September 13, 2012 @ 2:16 pm
Rose, I appreciate your reply. A lot. My first draft of this post referred to accessing a rape victim advocacy program rather than the police, but in the middle of writing it I realized I really didn’t know the right response, and I punted somewhat irresponsibly rather than taking the time to think about my response. I really appreciate your taking the time to reply sensitively, which I know you didn’t have to, given the 101 nature of the question at hand. Thank you.
Lindsay
September 13, 2012 @ 2:17 pm
(I know you’ve spent a LOT of time on this issue lately, and I appreciate your taking the time to share it.)
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 2:20 pm
A valid point, but I don’t think either Elizabeth or myself were trying to claim we knew exactly what happened. Elizabeth even asks what “know for sure” means in this context.
It doesn’t change the truth of Elizabeth’s statement re: consent.
Elynne
September 13, 2012 @ 2:22 pm
“So where does sexual harassment fall? Different people are going to have different reactions to it. To equate it to rape as some people have is just plain wrong, and that’s what I’ve been reacting to.”
Laurie–you’ve been asked a very clear and direct question: *where* have you seen sexual harassment equated to rape? Links, please? Quotes? Anything? Continuing to ignore and sidestep the question does nothing for your point; what it does is underline repeatedly the suggestion that *you* are the only one who has made that connection, and *you* are the one who is pushing it repeatedly into the lofty realms of hysterical hyperbole, which means that *you* are, in fact, the one responsible for creating and continuing these “ludicrous,” irrational, and pointless debates.
Andrew Trembley
September 13, 2012 @ 2:22 pm
It’s also worth pointing out that there’s harassment that doesn’t cross the illegal threshold, but should still not be welcome or tolerated at conventions.
vk
September 13, 2012 @ 2:26 pm
Agreed. Elizabeth is right that if you’re that drunk you can’t give consent. I was just pointing out that we don’t know if anything actually happened that needed consenting to.
sistercoyote
September 13, 2012 @ 2:32 pm
This is exactly what I was coming in to comment about, that sexual harassment can be and often is a stepping stone to sexual assault to rape. None of them occur in a social vacuum.
(And the twenty-something kid I work with said something akin to the “flirting is taboo” thing to me yesterday, but listened when I pointed out that the initial, potentially flirtatious comment (e.g., “you look nice today”) isn’t the problem. It’s his response to the other person’s response that could be the problem — if the compliment is accepted and the person is open to further conversation, great — by all means, keep conversing. But if the person’s response is negative in any way, end of conversation, because no one is entitled to anyone else’s time or attention. He seemed to get it. So I have some hope.)
Andrew Trembley
September 13, 2012 @ 2:32 pm
There’s a big one you missed, but I haven’t found an online example of it:
“That’s just Fred being Fred.”
1) What is “being Fred?” Because if “being Fred” is engaging in harassing and predatory behavior, “just Fred being Fred” suggests that it happens all the time.
2) Say what it is, and it doesn’t seem as harmless.
…and seriously, when are you going to put that fancy-schmancy “Hugo Award Winner” rocket graphic up here?
Susan de Guardiola
September 13, 2012 @ 2:40 pm
You might want to do a little research on Marion Zimmer Bradley and her sometime husband Walter Breen (quite comfortable with women, and used to attend Darkovercon) before getting overly nostalgic for those days.
Here’s a place to start: http://www.sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/
Note that this contradicts some recent depictions of the harassment problem, which have made me somewhat uneasy, as primarily one of fans bothering authors. It does go both ways.
nexusphere
September 13, 2012 @ 3:09 pm
I’m confused.
Assault is “an act intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact that causes apprehension of such contact in the victim.”
Is kissing my wife harmful or offensive contact? Does it create apprehension in her? How about when I grope her? Is she terrified of my affection?
Are you saying these acts are harmful or offensive? Should every couple be jailed?
Is it because he could read her mind and know the kiss was unwanted? Or did he assault her when he attempted to kiss her, she said no and he stopped?
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 3:17 pm
It seems pretty obvious that Tracy isn’t saying *all* kisses or gropes are acts of assault, and I suspect you’re being deliberately obtuse in reading it that way.
On the other hand, when a stranger grabbed my ass in an elevator? Hell yes that was harmful and offensive contact.
If you’re going to engage in the discussion here, please try to take it a little more seriously.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 3:21 pm
I could definitely do without hearing that one ever again, yeah.
nexusphere
September 13, 2012 @ 3:27 pm
A specific incident was related in which a pass was made in a hotel room.
She specifically called that out as assault.
I do not believe attempting to kiss a girl you are talking with in a private hotel room after talking to her for hours constitutes an overt attempt to cause an apprehension of harm.
Since there is no discussion, until you mentioned it, of a entirely separate incident of somebody violating personal boundaries in a public area I was not discussing it. But clearly slapping people in public can cause an apprehension of harm in some cases and has some ground for successfully charging the target with assault. I don’t know why you bring this up because I wasn’t discussing it.
Why am comment to me about taking this seriously? I did take what she said seriously, and it was confusing, like I said.
wordsurfer
September 13, 2012 @ 3:52 pm
Love the rant. Spot on.
Rose Fox
September 13, 2012 @ 4:01 pm
I do not believe attempting to kiss a girl you are talking with in a private hotel room after talking to her for hours constitutes an overt attempt to cause an apprehension of harm.
I assume that by “girl” you mean “woman”. If you’re trying to kiss someone underage, you have bigger problems.
Conversation is not consent. I have conversations with people every day. Sometimes they last for hours. Sometimes they take place in private, secluded spaces. It doesn’t matter. If I have not given an indication that I would be comfortable with kissing happening, then someone trying to kiss me is assault, the end.
Sally
September 13, 2012 @ 4:03 pm
To be fair, that shows that LauraA was perfectly safe there, not being a teenage boy and all… :/ 🙁
Sally
September 13, 2012 @ 4:07 pm
Jim, I’m sorry I couldn’t catch up with you at Worldcon (they put that cover pose panel too early in the morning!). I would have liked to have given you a respectful, mutually-agreeable hug. Or stand at a distance and go squee, whatever.
nexusphere
September 13, 2012 @ 4:21 pm
Conversation is not consent. I have conversations with people every day. Sometimes they last for hours. Sometimes they take place in private, secluded spaces. It doesn’t matter. If I have not given an indication that I would be comfortable with kissing happening, then someone trying to kiss me is assault, the end.
Oh, so it is my understanding from your statement that you can give a clear, concise and comprehensive definition good for every person in every culture in the world what the indication is that a woman would be comfortable with kissing happening that is subject to no misinterpretation?
Or would you rather just classify all attempts by men to kiss females as assault?
Again, we are talking about a situation in which an attempt to kiss was made, consent was not given, and the male stopped and went back to talking, and you wish to charge this person with a crime.
I am confused at how this improves the situation.
Rose Fox
September 13, 2012 @ 4:30 pm
My, those are some mobile goalposts! And some interesting assumptions, too. Among other things, I don’t identify as a woman and I’m much more likely to be alone in a room with a woman than with a man. Also, stating that something is assault is not the same thing as bringing charges.
I feel very sad for you and your wife that you are apparently not able to tell the difference between someone who has indicated a desire to kiss you and someone who has not. In your case, since you have this unfortunate blind spot and yet so clearly feel very passionately that consent is important, I would suggest a “yes means yes” policy: unless someone explicitly says “Kiss me, you fool!” or the equivalent, don’t do it, even if they like talking with you about things that aren’t kissing. This improves the situation, as you put it, by making sure that no one is assaulted, intentionally or inadvertently–which I think we can all agree is a great improvement over situations where people are assaulted.
Elynne
September 13, 2012 @ 4:35 pm
Yes, any physical action taken towards or against another person without that person’s clear and unambiguous consent can be legally considered assault. If a stranger walks up to you in the street and pokes you in the chest, that is legally considered assault. If you are sitting in a hotel room with a woman and having a wonderful discussion over the course of many hours and you kiss her without asking and receiving consent, THAT IS LEGALLY CONSIDERED SEXUAL ASSAULT.
Your dodge about “every person in every culture in the world” is duly noted. This conversation has always been about interactions taking place in conventions in the United States.
Your further dodge about “you wish to charge this person with a crime” is also duly noted. Observing that an action can be legally considered assault has no equivalent in actually calling the police and prosecuting an offense.
You are being deliberately disingenuous and obtuse in a blatant attempt to derail this conversation. See here and here. Better still, go read that entire website before commenting again.
nexusphere
September 13, 2012 @ 4:39 pm
stating that something is assault is not the same thing as bringing charges
You wish to declare something a crime and not have it enforced as one? To what end?
As to the uncalled for personal aggression, assumptions about my life are not germane to the topic.
I believe that the situation is more complex then “Wait until you are clearly and explicitly asked to kiss a woman before you kiss a woman.”
While yes, this would be wonderfully ideal and would in fact reduce assaults, I think that this is a trite and untenable solution to a complex problem. Your mileage may vary.
To End Kerfluffles… - Monica Valentinelli - Website for Author and Game Designer | Monica Valentinelli
September 13, 2012 @ 4:41 pm
[…] To take this a step further (and yes, I am FULLY aware of the irony of this post given that I’m saying I shouldn’t judge, but in a way I have) it cannot and should not stop there. When there’s a conflict, there should (even though our political leaders haven’t really been doing this) be mutual respect so that both sides can compromise on a solution that works best for them. When someone says: “You hurt me…” or “I was hurt by…” the appropriate response is: “Can you explain…” “Do you have time to talk…” “I would like to listen…” It is NOT “Well, I don’t understand it ergo that can’t be right.” If the two of you can’t work out the conflict, then get a neutral mediator or drop the subject and have a nice day. (For examples, see author Jim C. Hines post here: Crap People Say About Sexual Harassment). […]
Fred Kiesche
September 13, 2012 @ 4:42 pm
I thought it was Andrew being Andrew.
nexusphere
September 13, 2012 @ 4:54 pm
I feel that if the situation of a man making a pass at a woman, the woman not giving consent, and the man respecting that decision and no longer making a pass at the woman is a result that is acceptable. The woman did not give consent. That decision was respected.
The attitude of the responses is hostile.
It is my belief that criminals should be jailed. It is also my belief that the situation described by the person who’s quote was taken out of context is not a crime.
Interpersonal relationships between men and women are complex. This requires neither trite answers like ‘no one should act towards other genders to alter relationship boundaries without explicit verbal consent’ nor does it justify abuse, assault, battery or violence towards another human.
Elynne
September 13, 2012 @ 4:59 pm
“The attitude of the responses is hostile.”
Now, perhaps, you understand a little bit of what it is like to be a woman at a convention knowing that there are people who are willing to excuse, belittle, and justify any kind of assault upon her person at any time.
Once again, you are conflating “making a pass” with PHYSICAL CONTACT. No, there is no situation in which a person is *entitled* to make PHYSICAL CONTACT with another person, aside from saving their lives if they are in physical danger. If you say “hey, I’d like to kiss you,” and the other person says “no, I don’t want you to kiss me,” and you say “okay, I won’t kiss you” and drop the subject, no assault or harassment has occurred. The minute you INITIATE PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, you are in fact COMMITTING ASSAULT.
I’m not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. And in response to your earlier comment, if you don’t want to have your personal life discussed, perhaps you shouldn’t bring your personal life up in a discussion. You are the one who wrote “Is kissing my wife harmful or offensive contact? Does it create apprehension in her? How about when I grope her? Is she terrified of my affection?”
Michael Handler
September 13, 2012 @ 5:06 pm
Context matters. This is why proportional responses are good, and why mandatory penalties without any discretion have proved problematic. But it is still accurate to label things what they are.
If someone is convicted of property theft, they can be given effectively no sentence, probation, or any range of years of imprisonment or amount of restitution, depending on the value of what they stole and the context or any ameliorating circumstances. But they’re still guilty of property theft.
A kiss without consent is not a full-body beating, and the consequences should not be the same. But they’re both still assault, and complaining otherwise is language lawyering and frankly, more than a bit derailing.
If you want more *context* why this is particularly important in the *context* of unwanted sexual attention, please hie the to the nearest search engine of choice and avail yourself of the results returned by [it wasn’t really rape] or [redefining rape].
Dw3t-Hthr
September 13, 2012 @ 5:12 pm
And of course “being socially awkward” or having a social disorder is only something that affects the sort of men who harass, and not their victims, right? (At least in some people’s minds.)
Elynne
September 13, 2012 @ 5:12 pm
Thank you. I’m going to bow out of further replies, since continuing this discussion is raising my blood pressure more than is healthy.
Shira Lipkin
September 13, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
I volunteer for/used to work for the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center, so if you’re curious, here’s how one RCC would handle this:
If the survivor called our hotline, they’d leave their contact info with the answering service and would receive a call back from one of our hotline volunteers within 5 minutes. The volunteer would first determine that the survivor was physically safe at their location. If that’s so, they’d ask what the survivor would like to discuss. If the survivor indicated that they had recently experienced an assault (we get calls from people 20 years later sometimes), the volunteer would present them with their options, which would include medical attention and evidence collection as well as reporting to the police. If the survivor decided to seek medical attention, we would dispatch a medical advocate to meet them at the hospital and provide any assistance that they need. Both the hotline volunteer and the medical advocate would let the survivor know about their options for followup care, including free counseling services, legal advocacy, and case management.
At every step of the way, all of these decisions are up to the survivor. We will NEVER tell a survivor that they must file a police report or have evidence collected. In the aftermath of a sexual assault or rape, it is incredibly important to not take away the survivor’s power to choose what happens to them and their body.
There is no real industry standard for RCCs, but this is how most RCCs that I personally know people at operate. I think it’s very important to keep the response centered on what the survivor needs and chooses.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 5:35 pm
I’m generally pro-hug 🙂 Rain check for next time?
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 5:38 pm
Oh, so it is my understanding from your statement that you can give a clear, concise and comprehensive definition good for every person in every culture in the world what the indication is that a woman would be comfortable with kissing happening that is subject to no misinterpretation?
Or would you rather just classify all attempts by men to kiss females as assault?
There are more logical fallacies in this than I can count.
Read more carefully before you respond, please.
Jim C. Hines
September 13, 2012 @ 5:45 pm
Nexusphere,
As for the hostility, the responses have been surprisingly civil. Has anyone threatened you? Has anyone called you names? Or are you using “hostile” to mean “people are disagreeing with me”?
I’m not going to try to argue the legalities, in part because many laws vary from one state to the next, and one country to the next.
You seem to be taking the approach that men should be able to make whatever advances, verbal and physical, they please, and that it’s all on the woman to put a stop to it if she’s not comfortable. Others are arguing that it’s better to clearly communicate and make sure both people are on the same page and consenting before doing so.
Which leads me to wonder what it is you find so difficult, so overwhelmingly complex, about consent?
Andrew Trembley
September 13, 2012 @ 6:45 pm
…well, that too. Anything to dodge the name of the person I’m actually thinking about.
Craig
September 13, 2012 @ 7:17 pm
Seconded (thirded?).
There are some things that are commonly done by “normal” people that, due to my personal quirks, I am unable to do without an excessive chance of accidentally frightening, annoying or offending people. This means that _I do not get to do these things_, no matter how frustrating or disappointing that might be.
My problems are my problem; I have no right to shift the price of dealing with my crap onto other people.
Sarah
September 13, 2012 @ 8:21 pm
I do not believe attempting to kiss a girl you are talking with in a private hotel room after talking to her for hours constitutes an overt attempt to cause an apprehension of harm.
Golly. Do you actually think having a conversation in a hotel room with a man constitutes consent to be kissed? If so, can you put that on a placard round your neck at the next con you attend so everyone knows who not to be alone with?
tracy
September 13, 2012 @ 9:18 pm
She claims that an unwanted kiss is not rape. This is true, but an unwanted kiss is assault.
XtinaS
September 13, 2012 @ 9:34 pm
Laurie, do you actually reply to comments, or do you just ask the same things over and over again in the hopes that someone will agree with you and you can be validated? I gotta know.
Brian L Blalock
September 13, 2012 @ 11:53 pm
I’ll just say I’m glad I don’t go to cons. Also, glad to see you’re still cranking out the novels, Jim. =)
Nexusphere
September 14, 2012 @ 2:03 am
I mean hostile to mean people typing in all caps when conversing online.
The idea that human beings should never touch each other without explicit verbal consent is unrealistic. I’ve played sports, been on a playground, and worked in offices. Human beings are social animals who touch each other.
To solve a problem by saying that “no one should ever touch another person ever without explicit verbal consent” seems unrealistic. Good luck with that.
I again state that a human being voicing an request to not be touched and that request being respected is not a crime.
LauraA
September 14, 2012 @ 2:38 am
Oh, how sad. 🙁 I had no idea.
Linkspam, 9/14/12 Edition — Radish Reviews
September 14, 2012 @ 7:04 am
[…] Crap People Say About Sexual Harassment Jim C. Hines summarizes a lot of gross stuff people say online. […]
Jim C. Hines
September 14, 2012 @ 7:33 am
Nexusphere,
“I mean hostile to mean people typing in all caps when conversing online.”
One person did that, and I read it as emphasis, not hostility. I find it odd that you’re defending the idea of unwanted physical touches, kisses, etc., but are apparently feel it’s wrong for someone to respond to you with a few caps-locked sentences.
You’ve stated your opinion here many times. A lot of people have pointed out problems or disagreed with what you’re saying. As far as I can tell, you’ve dismissed or disregarded every one, while complaining about people’s tone.
This thread is done now.
Jim C. Hines
September 14, 2012 @ 8:40 am
“…and seriously, when are you going to put that fancy-schmancy “Hugo Award Winner” rocket graphic up here?”
I’ve thought about it, but can’t figure out a way to do it that doesn’t seem self-aggrandizing. I did add something to the “About Jim” page.
Pirengle
September 14, 2012 @ 9:42 am
My girlfriend has told me she doesn’t want to go alone to a few conventions (gaming, sci-fi, and renfair-related cons) because she doesn’t want to deal with men who won’t take no for an answer from a pretty girl wearing a nice costume.
I also used to be a staffer for an up-and-coming sci-fi con with a “Fred” (see Andrew Trembley’s comment), a notorious local filmmaker with a thing for high school and college-age redheads. Hearing a room full of adults say “well, that’s just Fred being Fred” and “we know what Fred’s like but we can stop him before he gets too bad” was one of the major reasons I’m not a staffer for that con anymore. (Even after the Readercon brouhaha; after all, nothing like that ever happens here, right?) It sickens me that it’s going to take a documented case of someone going too far at an event for people to change their minds–if at all–and I fear such an incident be handled more like a PR disaster.
KatG
September 14, 2012 @ 12:28 pm
It’s not the 1970’s anymore. The laws are not toys that you can ignore. And there are more ways to sexually assault a woman violating her body than simply penetration rape. Cops are going to get called, cons are going to get sued if they keep pretending we’re still forty years in the past. And thankfully the committee at Readercon understood that and acted responsibly. And it’s not because some people are oversensitive. It’s because some people don’t get that we’re no longer pretending, socially, legally, morally, that certain types of behavior are okay anymore against other people. That some guy feeling restricted at a public event doesn’t trump a woman suffering post traumatic stress because the guy cornered her at a con and felt her up. And that this guy is in fact committing a crime by chasing a woman around a con and groping her. It’s 2012. Are you seriously telling me that I should tell my 16-year-old daughter who wants to go to some cons that she should just ignore some strange guy groping her or laugh in his face and hope he doesn’t attack her for it because hey, there are child brides in India? Is that what she’s supposed to do when she’s 18 and legally “adult”? That she should accept all the crap she gets from people if she reports it about her asking for it or giving non-verbal consent or it was all her fault she was assaulted — all those lovely 1970’s notions — as her moral guide? No, sorry. It’s illegal. It’s wrong. And people aren’t going to shut up about it anymore. All these opinions that we should time travel backwards are dully noted. And ignored. And you’ll just have to get used to it or build yourself your own time machine.
Andrew Trembley
September 14, 2012 @ 12:44 pm
Drop a small one in above the “translation” or “meta” section in one of the sidebars.
Not both. Both would be self-aggrandizing.
Jim C. Hines
September 14, 2012 @ 8:23 pm
Ugh. Yeah … I’ve seen pushback and complaints that people are getting so loud and angry and up in arms about sexual harassment, but maybe that’s because nothing else has worked. Because anything “quieter” gets brushed under the rug with “Oh, Fred will be Fred” and other minimizing crap.
Jim C. Hines
September 14, 2012 @ 8:42 pm
Hm. That might work. Probably the right column, since that’s the one that’s mostly about the blog…
Mad Dog
September 16, 2012 @ 10:15 pm
Why Jim you are one big PC wimp. Hard to believe how holier then thou you come back at some of the people’s(females) responses to you.
Shit happens but when you talk about being Harmed and basically raped when your ass was grabbed in a elevator is quite absurd and belittles the very thing you have decided to champion, Oh Great Defender of the poor defenseless females of Earth.
I agree All problems need to be addressed. But until God Takes sexuality out of human existence.There will always be things such as groping, kissing etc.
Talking about it as if you are the end all be all on a diverse subject while responding like you have to crush those who do not see cons as a Sex Slave Trade Convention seems like your living in your own world.
Stereotyping the stereotypical Pimple headed Nerd with glasses who has never been laid and is afraid of girls as a Ghetto Viking Rapist hell bent on groping women to death while laughing at you seems a bit much. And that is my over the top response to your sensitive but callous views.
And I already know your going to take things I said and not equate what I meant but how you can use it to say I’m for Rape and I’m Blind.
Go Ahead its your problem not mine.
By the way, I find many of your book covers to be extremely Sexist(and therefore promoting Rape) Damn that was so easy, I need to blog it.
Dr. NerdLove
September 16, 2012 @ 11:03 pm
So what you’re saying is that you’re powerless before your own sexuality? Must be terrifying to be such a slave to your impulses.
Remember last week when you asked me what the definition of “irony” was?
How is one sensitive and callous at the same time?
Kathleen
September 16, 2012 @ 11:31 pm
I’m a commenting n00b, but would I be correct in surmising that Maddog’s comment is an example of trolling? This is a real question, because I was going to say something, then thought, “wait, don’t feed trolls after midnight! Or something…hmmm, I should check that.”
Jim C. Hines
September 17, 2012 @ 10:24 am
I would lean toward labeling Maddog a troll, yes.
Elizabeth Moon
September 17, 2012 @ 5:23 pm
Sexual harassment and rape are on the same behavior axis, and result from the same attitudes towards male privilege and entitlement. Men who harass and men who rape believe the same basic things about women–that women have no right to withhold what men want (a touch, a kiss, a conversation, sexual congress–with or without consent.) Situations that began in harassment have ended in rape. Thus seeing sexual harassment as a precursor to rape, or a warning sign that an individual may then or later commit rape, is reasonable on the evidence.
Elizabeth Moon
September 17, 2012 @ 5:40 pm
“Where does sexual harassment fall?” A complete discussion would require going into the concept of personal boundaries–a topic you might want to research. In simple form, sexual harassment is one form of boundary transgression: it is unwanted sexualized attention.
Like you, I have dealt with sexualized attention all my life, from the time a boy in elementary school tried to yank up my skirt and another one wanted me to look at his (insignificant) boy parts. Like you, I have dealt with it firmly or humorously on occasion. I am tall, used to be athletic, and by the middle of junior high had beaten up enough of the up-skirting boys that they mostly let me alone. (This is not the ideal way to solve the sexual harassment problem–most girls are not bigger, stronger, and–most important–faster than boys their age, nor do they have a mother who knew some judo…the result of her own experience with harassment.) I have been to conventions where I–a fairly situationally alert person–did not have a problem or see one–and other conventions where I was stalked and firmness did not work, or where the conversations were sexualized rather than companionable.
But I know my experience is not universal, and do not discredit the experiences of other women who have been harassed. The person being harassed gets to say where her boundaries are.
Michael Handler
September 17, 2012 @ 5:42 pm
As harrowing as these stories are to read, I’m starting to wonder if they’re not going to be one of the more/most powerful ways we can get across to people what is meant by : or .
To wit: a person who is going to explode with screaming public rage just because you decided you didn’t want to respond to a single conversational overture looks just like someone who will politely and quietly back away if their “Hello there!” is not returned.
Far far far too many people (women) have stories identical (or worse) to the ones above (read the comments in those links, if you have the emotional reserves), and if you ask and they think you’ll listen, people you care deeply about may very well reveal that they’ve had the exact same experience.
To minimize increasingly creepy behavior as “just” standard “expected” harassment that one should shrug off and not take seriously is to be unaware of the very real and widespread experiences that people have had with people who looked to be normal and kind and friendly at one second, and proved themselves to be anything but a second later.
(Or to be deliberately obtuse about such things happening, as some people appear to desire to be.)
Michael Handler
September 17, 2012 @ 5:46 pm
Yay, I totally screwed up those HTML tags! Reposting with fix.
As harrowing as these stories are to read, I’m starting to wonder if they’re not going to be one of the more/most powerful ways we can get across to people what is meant by Schrodinger’s Rapist: UnWinona’s story of train harassment, and Captain Awkward’s story of the same.
To wit: a person who is going to explode with screaming public rage just because you decided you didn’t want to respond to a single conversational overture looks just like someone who will politely and quietly back away if their “Hello there!” is not returned.
Far far far too many people (women) have stories identical (or worse) to the ones above (read the comments in those links, if you have the emotional reserves), and if you ask and they think you’ll listen, people you care deeply about may very well reveal that they’ve had the exact same experience.
To minimize increasingly creepy behavior as “just” standard “expected” harassment that one should shrug off and not take seriously is to be unaware of the very real and widespread experiences that people have had with people who looked to be normal and kind and friendly at one second, and proved themselves to be anything but a second later.
(Or to be deliberately obtuse about such things happening, as some people appear to desire to be.)
Elizabeth Moon
September 17, 2012 @ 6:05 pm
When you wake up with bruises, pain, no panties, and semen dripping out of your vagina, you know “something actually happened.”
Typically, women who were raped while unconscious have unmistakable physical symptoms when they wake up. If they’re lucky enough to be where they can get post-rape care, the physical evidence will be plain. Prosecutors can still decide “she shouldn’t have been drunk” and fail to follow up.
Elizabeth Moon
September 17, 2012 @ 6:25 pm
I spent six years in EMS as well as several years working in a rural clinic. While in EMS I had occasion to see the aftermath of multiple rapes and assaults on women. Some were people we transported in our ambulance; some were seen at the hospitals where we delivered people. While in the clinic, I was often in the room with the doctor when a woman (young to old) revealed her history of rape and sexual and physical assault. In addition, a friend was a lawyer specializing in family issues and women’s issues; I photographed bruises and other marks on a woman whose rape was laughed off by the police. I had friends working in the county crisis center, as well.
So that’s a background I’m not seeing here, for the most part, when people are trying desperately to deny that sexual harassment or assault is a problem (in SF cons or anywhere else.) I’m not seeing that most of those who want so hard to see it as not a problem have ever seen a victim immediately after…have ever seen the bruises, had to open a rape kit, watched the reactions of family called to the ER…or of those medical personnel who are not at all sympathetic (and there are some, unfortunately.)
When I see, or hear of, sexual harassment at a convention, or sexual assault, or (as in one convention) am awakened by sirens and voices and find that a woman in the same hotel has died of “rough sex, she liked it, it was an accident,” and urged by convention organizers not to say anything about it lest it ruin their reputation…I have that experience to fall back on. The black eyes, the cuts on the cheek bones, on the lips. The bruises on arms, on the inner thighs, clear marks of fingers, knees, elbows; the hair pulled out, the bite marks. The shock, the terror, the shame in a woman’s face…the self-disgust. When my first stalker began stalking others I knew–intruded on one’s workplace–I knew that someone who would transgress boundaries the way he had would stop only where he wanted to. Maybe he would never rape. But only because he chose not to, not because he thought women had a right to have boundaries. He’d already proven that he felt entitled to decide for women–for me, for other women I knew–where they were allowed to have boundaries. When I was warned not to let our son be around a certain writer because he had a thing for pretty little boys that age–but the man was an award-winning writer, highly admired, so nothing would be done, just be careful with your boy–I was appalled and said so (and was shushed…he’s so creative, so important, we don’t want to upset anything.) As with Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky, the idea was to keep anything from going public…though at least I was warned. But I can’t trust those who told me to keep quiet. I don’t want to go back there–not because I fear harm to myself, but because the atmosphere of privilege and entitlement is so sickening.
It is not OK. It never was OK, even when society said it was (in my childhood, for instance.) It is not OK now. It will never be OK.
Kendra
September 18, 2012 @ 7:04 am
While the phrase “no means no” means well, it isn’t good enough. Afterall, you wouldn’t say that you can take something from someone, since they didn’t say no. There must be some sort of consent. So it makes more sense that the right phrase would be “yes means yes”.
Jim C. Hines
September 18, 2012 @ 8:19 am
Is it overly vindictive of me to hope that those who tried to cover up a pedophile at a convention just because he was “important” end up facing the same kind of consequences and public shaming as those in the Paterno/Sandusky case?
And I think you’re right that part of the denial and minimizing comes from people who just haven’t seen it in real life, or choose not to see it.
Anya @ On Starships and Dragonwings
September 26, 2012 @ 9:54 am
As a female who loves to go to cons and dress up, thank you for posting this.