Boundaries
You have the right to say no.
When I wrote that sentence, it felt absurd. Of course you have the right to say no. We all do. “Just say no!” “No means no!” And yet…
We grow up learning that “No” is rude. It’s more important to avoid hurting other people’s feelings. It’s important to be polite and accommodating. Setting boundaries and prioritizing our own comfort and safety is selfish. We push these lessons even harder on women, expecting them to be caretakers, putting everyone else’s needs above their own.
Screw that.
I think Listening Ear training – where I became a volunteer crisis and sexual assault counselor – was the first time I really started to learn about the importance of boundaries. We talked about it first in the context of sexual harassment and assault.
You have the right to set your own boundaries, to say no and to have that be respected.
It’s something my culture is really bad at. We treat “No” as a challenge, a hurdle to be overcome through pressure, alcohol, emotional manipulation, even physical force.
It’s not just sexual. Over the weekend, I was talking on Facebook about an incident where a friend offered me food. I said no, and she immediately responded with, “Oh, why not? Come on, just take one.”
A few people didn’t understand why this bothered me so much. She wasn’t trying to be mean. Why was I blowing it all out of proportion? (The phrases “drama queen” and “mountain out of a molehill” were used.)
Ironically, this led to me choosing to set another boundary, telling someone he was no longer welcome in the conversation. That boundary was ignored. He wanted to argue his point. He complained I was just upset because he didn’t agree with me. He wanted me to explain.
When someone sets a boundary, your job is to respect that. You might not understand. You might feel hurt. You might be pissed off.
It doesn’t matter.
Your confusion, your hurt feelings, the fact that you don’t like someone telling you no, none of that gives you the right to violate someone else’s boundaries.
Whether it’s someone trying to pressure you into bed or someone who keeps pushing their homemade cheesecake at you, you have the right to say no.
I’ve lost friends because I had the gall to set boundaries in my own space, online or in real life. This happened a while back with an editor I considered a friend, and I still don’t understand why things immediately went to hell when I said I wasn’t in a space to have this conversation. Maybe I wasn’t nice enough about it? Maybe I didn’t adopt the proper tone? I don’t know.
How often do we teach people that they have the right to take care of themselves? Why don’t we teach that it’s okay to set boundaries? And why the hell don’t we teach people to respect them?
You have the right to set boundaries. You have the right to have those boundaries respected.
- Not “You have the right to say no as long as you’re nice enough.”
- Not “You have the right to say no but I’m gonna try to change your mind.”
- Not “You have the right to say no unless I think you’re wrong.”
- Not “You have the right to say no once you can give me a satisfactory explanation as to why you’re saying no.”
When someone says no, the correct response is “Okay.” If you don’t understand, that’s fine. You don’t have to understand. Maybe the other person will be willing to explain. Maybe not. But they don’t owe you an explanation.
You have the right to say no, period. And if someone can’t accept that, then the hell with them. The problem isn’t you.
misha
June 11, 2012 @ 9:45 am
I wonder sometimes if the ‘don’t tell your child no, you’ll stunt his emotional growth’ stupidity from the late 80’s made it worse.
Jim C. Hines
June 11, 2012 @ 10:00 am
I was thinking about kids as I wrote this, because with children, there are a lot of times when you do have to say no and set boundaries, but there are also times when the kids say no and you have to override them.
“It’s time to stop playing video games and come to dinner.”
“No, I want to keep playing!”
But I think it’s important to also show them that they do have the right to say no in other areas. Physical boundaries, for example — if my kid doesn’t want a hug or kiss, then I should respect that and teach them that they get to set those rules and make those choices.
They need to learn both that they do have the power to say no, at least in some areas, but they also need to learn how to accept no and respect other people’s boundaries.
Redhead
June 11, 2012 @ 10:02 am
thank you thank you thank you for this, in so many ways, and for so many reasons.
Dark Matter Fanzine
June 11, 2012 @ 10:09 am
I agree wholeheartedly. About 19 years ago I attended my first assertiveness training course where everyone had to practice saying no and setting boundaries. This is an issue that has never gone away, it just keeps being revisited in my life in different forms.
When my kids were little I had very few people I could ask to babysit and I asked very very rarely BUT there was one woman I always knew I could ask because if it wasn’t ok she would say no. She only ever said yes if it was definitely ok and she’d be reliable. That was awesome.
Mishell
June 11, 2012 @ 10:11 am
It is definitely hard with a small child to know when you have to ignore “no” (daughter doesn’t want to get in the car) and when to respect it (daughter doesn’t want a hug). I try to mitigate the damage by at least acknowledging her feelings verbally and respectfully in the former case, rather than steamrolling over them, but I have no real answers on this matter, and I worry about where the lines are.
Honestly I worry about it with adults, too. If I think my husband ought to go to the doctor about his chest pains and he isn’t comfortable with that and says he knows his own body and doesn’t want a doctor poking at him and he’s fine, do I respect that, or is he now acting like a child who requires guidance to separate his own desires from necessity?
Jim C. Hines
June 11, 2012 @ 10:11 am
It seems strange to me that we’d have to practice saying “No,” but I had to do the same thing. I had to learn, as a grown-up, how to do this. It was surprisingly hard, and sometimes it still is.
Jim C. Hines
June 11, 2012 @ 10:17 am
I agree, and I don’t have an easy answer. I think, in general, I’d want to evaluate how immediately harmful/dangerous something is to the person and those around them. For example, I hate that a relative of mine smokes, but it’s her choice, and I try to respect that … but not in my house, and not around my children.
In something like the case you describe, where maybe it’s nothing but maybe it’s an emergency … I don’t know.
Hazmatilda
June 11, 2012 @ 10:18 am
Jim, I’ve been going through some of these exact issues with a couple of friends of mine, one specifically that is starting to impact our friendship. I completely agree with everything you’ve said here, yet up until reading this, I still felt I was the one in the wrong and was still upset by it. I know longer feel that way. Thank you.
Hazmatilda
June 11, 2012 @ 10:19 am
Correction – “no” longer feel that way.
S Kennedy
June 11, 2012 @ 10:33 am
This is a subject that’s very important to me, both in the sexual and non-sexual arena.
I had a longtime friend (years and years) that I fell into bed with (yay!) one night who was experiencing some unusual pain. I thought it best that we stop, because, uh, I’m not a monster, and she actually cried at that gesture. She was so used to _not being allowed to say no_ (at least emotionally) that it was amazing that someone should make that step.
I mention that because I find that a lot of very kind people are used to others not accepting no, not giving them the chance or emotionally coercing them, and while that’s a pretty obvious example, it can happen in even the most casual of circumstances.
I wrote a bit in G+ on my thoughts there. It can be challenging to have a really comfortable and close friendship with someone who cannot set their own boundaries or who expects you (or anyone) will push them. IMO.
Eric Sipple
June 11, 2012 @ 10:35 am
This is a huge problem in my family, which is cursed through and through with Italian Grandmother Syndrome. (“Eric! Hi! Do you want some cookies? It’s almost lunchtime, you must be hungry. Here have some…oh, you’re sitting on the couch and it’s cold over there! I have this heated blanked you should put on. Just try it. It’s great. It’s…oh, and here, have a little table where you can put your drink. No? But I already brought it over to you.”)
This I’m both more sensitive to the Not Accepting No thing (from my family, at whom I am primed for a good shout in such situations) and way more accepting of it (from my friends, who can’t come close to the level of epic bulldozing of which my family is capable of). I’m always trying to catch myself if I start lapsing into it, what with being predisposed to the behavior after years of being raised with it. Resisting the I AM JUST TRYING TO BE HELPFUL tsunami is learned behavior for me.
I also say this as someone who is really, truly bad at saying no. It’s one of the common topics in my therapy sessions, and it leads to destructive runs of behavior where I burn myself out on things I should have just declined and leave nothing for myself. I’m especially bad with feeling guilt by telling someone, “No, I do not want to go out because I have to write,” because in my head it ends up sounding like, “No, I can’t help you with your problems because I have to do this thing no one is paying me to do. Bugger off.”
That said, I do think that trying to understand/seeking an explanation thing is a sludgy, nuanced area. I agree that you don’t owe anyone an explanation for why you’re saying no. If you ask someone to go out for drinks and they say no, that’s something you should probably just accept (because if they didn’t give you an explanation, they probably don’t want to), but in bigger, more relationshipy circumstances, politely seeking better understanding can be vital to avoid inadvertently pressuring someone in the future. There’s a difference between I Don’t Want To Do That Tonight and Please Stop Asking Me Until I Tell You Otherwise. Asking if someone is willing to tell you which it is (while being willing to accept that they might not want to tell you) can lead to *better* respecting someone’s boundaries. You’re right that no one owes or is owed an explanation, but I’m hesitant to take it so far as: Just say okay, don’t ask why. Which possibly isn’t what you were saying. And, if so, I’m curious for your further thoughts.
Jim C. Hines
June 11, 2012 @ 10:38 am
Yes — good on you for stopping, obviously, but WTF is wrong with our society that this was such an exceptional thing to do? That should be common decency, not an extraordinary act of kindness.
Stopping now because if I don’t this will turn into another 1000-word rant.
Annalee
June 11, 2012 @ 11:03 am
[Content warning: discussion of bullying behavior]
My position on boundaries is as strict as yours, which has led to what’s proven to be an unpopular opinion about pranks. Namely: if the punchline of the prank is that it overrides someone’s bodily autonomy, the ‘prank’ isn’t funny ant the person perpetrating it is being an asshole.
Pulling someone’s pants down? Not funny. Putting hot sauce in their food or dumping the sugar bowl into their drink? Not funny. Itching powder? Who the hell thinks contact poisons are funny?
I can get most people to back off on food pranks by pointing out that messing with someone’s food can put them in the hospital. But for some reason, even when I can get someone to understand that people might have health reasons for wanting to choose what they eat, I usually can’t get them to understand that demanding to know a person’s reasons is still asserting the right to make the decision for them.
I’ve lost friends, online and off, over my insistence that people not make jokes out of violating consent. I’ve also been told that I’m “blowing things out of proportion,” that I’m spoiling other people’s fun; that if other people have an understanding about pranking each other, it’s not my business. That last one might be true, except that their ‘understanding’ (if in fact they have one, and it’s not just a figment of one party’s imagination) still boils down to making a joke out of consent, and that’s still ****ing gross.
Capital Pride! « lovelylikebeestings
June 11, 2012 @ 11:14 am
[…] guys, go read @jimchines blog post on the right to say "no" jimchines.com/2012/06/bounda… […]
Mel
June 11, 2012 @ 11:39 am
This is -exactly- why I choose not to watch certain prank shows. Thank you for putting this into words. “Violating consent” is why some physical “comedy” makes me uncomfortable.
Shalora
June 11, 2012 @ 11:48 am
“But I think it’s important to also show them that they do have the right to say no in other areas. Physical boundaries, for example — if my kid doesn’t want a hug or kiss, then I should respect that and teach them that they get to set those rules and make those choices.”
OMG. This. So much. My mother managed to infect me with oral herpes (aka “cold sores”) because she would NEVER stop kissing me on the mouth, no matter how much I BEGGED her not to when she had a huge, horrid, nasty, weeping, cold sore on hers. And now I have to deal with them for the rest of my life, and have times when I can’t kiss the people I love, because she couldn’t use any common sense OR listen when I very clearly told her “please, can’t you just wait until it’s healed, I do NOT want to have those for MY entire life!”.
It’s just one example of the MYRIAD of ways in which I was NEVER allowed to set boundaries with my family in general and her in particular – and yet she was then completely shocked when I proved to be unable to set boundaries with the people around me as I got older. Um, yeah, because I never once got to see how that worked. When you get PUNISHED for trying to set boundaries, you finally decide, on a deep subconscious level, that it’s a dangerous thing to do and clearly you just need to be a doormat… I’m in my 30s now and just barely able to even try to start to figure this garbage out.
sistercoyote
June 11, 2012 @ 12:12 pm
Both my therapists (my psychological therapist and my nutritional therapist) are always after me to set boundaries with people. It’s one of the hardest things for me to do, because I expect my boundaries to be trampled (by my mother, my sister, my boss…)
But I’m getting better at it. I’m still terrible about telling my boss “no”, but other people. I’ve set some boundaries with my mother that are holding because I won’t give.
Thanks for this.
Leslie
June 11, 2012 @ 12:48 pm
Apparently this Italian Grandmother Syndrome applies to Dutch grandparents as well. I love my grandparents dearly, and don’t get to see them often as they live far away. Sometimes I just want to say “Please stop running around trying to get me things – I’m fine. What’d I’d really like is for you to just sit down and chat with me.”
I have that same problem with burning myself out because I can’t say no. And I always feel guilty about telling someone I can’t do something or don’t want to do something with them because I had planned something (or nothing!) for just me. As though staying home and doing laundry or writing or just being by myself is not a good enough reason to turn down a social engagement.
I agree with you that sometimes having an explanation can lead to a better understanding as long as the person asking for an explanation is willing to accept it if the person saying no chooses not to provide one. I am so far indoctrinated into the “I have to offer an explanation so that you’ll see I have a good reason and I’m really not just a bad/mean person” school of thought that it took me FOREVER to learn not to offer explanations to telemarketers. I’ve finally come to a place where I can politely say “no thank you, I’m not interested” and if they keep talking after that, I hang up on them. (I realize it’s their job to not take no for an answer, but seriously, how has our society evolved to the point that this acceptable?)
Miya
June 11, 2012 @ 2:43 pm
My father still does not understand why I hated to be tickled as a kid. Why screaming “No!” at the top of my lungs was not “part of the game”. Why I am shy about hugging him to this day. He never harmed me in any other way, but that one relatively insignificant loss of control over my own body has left little ripples I’ve had to waste energy overcoming elsewhere in my life.
I’ve tried to explain, and he still thinks I was “molehilling” when I threatened to take my kids and cut our visit short if he didn’t listen to my daughter when SHE said “no”. (Of course, the way I’ve tried to raise her, if he’d persisted Papa might just have gotten a knee to the balls…)
Desz
June 11, 2012 @ 5:01 pm
I think that we (especially women) have a responsibility to say no. If we are uncomfortable, fearful, and not wanting contact, pretending to be happy to hug someone who’s more huggy than we’re comfortable with, or allowing someone to persist in pressuring us to sleep with them or have cheesecake needs to have a quick and clear response. I’m a big fan of clarity as a remover of drama, and if someone says anything about “molehills” I simply say “You asked, I said no, and moved on. You’re the one making a big deal over nothing.”
No is easier to say, with practice. 🙂
Novel
June 11, 2012 @ 6:43 pm
I’m a firstborn, and my parents very consciously chose never to use the word “No” to me as an imperative in order to deny me the concept of “no” at a formative point in my development. They were super proud of themselves for denying me a way to express autonomy, as they told me repeatedly when I was an adolescent and had “screwed up their plans” for my little sister by teaching her how to say no. My mother didn’t connect this with the way I also didn’t have any way to begin to formulate my wish that people not put their hands on me, and so I ended up being physically punished and screamed at a lot by my parents when other people put their hands on me, as happens a lot when you’re an adolescent girl who reeks of abuse trauma.
I was well into my twenties before I could even start setting boundaries with other people, because I had been so conditioned that I didn’t have the right to do so.
I get very tired of the people who won’t take no for an answer. I get even more tired of the people who turn around and tell those of us who struggle with this that anything that happens to us because of that struggle is doubly our fault. :/
Ian Osmond
June 11, 2012 @ 7:46 pm
Yes, yes, yes to the physical boundaries. How can you teach a kids that their bodies belong to themselves, that, when they grow up, they have the right to share or not share their bodies with whomever they want, and then tell them that they have to give their Auntie a kiss if they don’t want to?
Thankfully, my family doesn’t do this. When I take my leave nieces, nephews, cousins-once-removed, and the like, their parents say things like, “Would you like to give Uncle Ian a hug? Or shake his hand? Or wave?” And, of course, just because they chose “hugging” the last time, they are totally allowed to wave THIS time.
LongHairedWeirdo
June 11, 2012 @ 9:36 pm
Thank you for saying this.
I’d like to add something. Sometimes, I’ve found setting a boundary is hard. And sometimes, it’s a painful thing. And intellectually, I know about setting boundaries and negotiation and a whole host of other things, but deep down, I still had a very, very hard time setting some boundaries and engaging in some very fair negotiation.
Having those problems doesn’t mean that generic-you are broken or wrong or that you’re asking too much or being too pushy. It didn’t mean that when I had those issues; it doesn’t mean that if you have those issues. It typically just means that it involves something sensitive, scary, or painful. That means it takes care, and practice, in learning to deal with them – and it might be painful the first few times, but it will get easier (well – almost always – I can’t promise it *will*, always).
It’s also really necessary because if it’s that hurtful/scary/whatever, it’s probably dealing with something that has a lot of energy for you. So, the stuff that can be hardest to set limits about can be the most important stuff to set limits about. But on the positive side, it means that once you can set limits there, everywhere else should be (relatively) easier.
Gail King
June 11, 2012 @ 9:58 pm
You know all those advice books about how to recognize and respect other cultures? Some of those other cultures, including the American South, have a tradition where the host offers and the guest declines as not wanting to be greedy, the host offers again (possibly multiple times) and finally guest accepts. This can apply to traditional courting behavior as well. In many cases, saying Yes right away is considered rude!
Just because that’s not logical to us, doesn’t mean it’s not real. No matter how rational we might be, centuries of culture will not change overnight. It’s a very Western trait, to expect that reason is the trump card, and the rest of the world is clearly uninterested in doing everything our way.
I’m not arguing with No means No, in situations of physical or emotional danger. I am saying that we should be polite in social situations.
Jim C. Hines
June 11, 2012 @ 10:08 pm
“I’m not arguing with No means No, in situations of physical or emotional danger…”
Who defines emotional danger? You can read through all sorts of examples here and on LJ where I’m sure the people creating the mixed message had no intention of causing emotional harm, nor awareness that they were doing so.
Anne Gray
June 12, 2012 @ 12:24 am
We don’t have a cultural identity we can blame this on, but this is very strong in my family as well, and it was particularly maddening when I was getting back in shape and learning what were the healthiest eating habits for my body, that it felt very much as though my mother would not and did not respect my judgement and choices about what I was going to eat. Now as parents, of course, we have the same struggle with regard to choices we make for our daughter – being second-guessed by relatives. I think it can actually undermine your child’s sense of your parental authority, having people pressure you to change your rules in front of the child, especially if you cave (as with grandparents wanting to offer the child desert, who is not accustomed to having sweets, especially not right before bed).
The one time I was really successful losing weight, I was lucky enough to be doing so right around Lent; though I am not Christian, I found telling people I had given chocolate up for Lent was an excellent way to get them to stop offering it to me. It should really be as simple as saying no. As a hypoglycemic, I started getting tempted to say something like, “What you don’t know is you’re offering me something that is poisonous to my body.” But I’d settle for people taking “no” for an answer.
David Dyer-Bennet
June 12, 2012 @ 1:18 am
Yeah, random people have no obligation to explain anything to me or anybody else. Still, refusing to engage at all is the most extreme rejection that’s available. Sometimes it’s the appropriate one; but it’s not a minor choice. (A huge proportion of the examples of violating boundaries appearing here are so far beyond the pale that total rejection is an entirely suitable response to them. But many far lesser things are described in the literature as boundary violations as well.)
Kathleen R
June 12, 2012 @ 7:49 am
While I read this, I thought to myself I must post. I agree with most of your message. What I don’t agree with is your statement about being nice enough when saying no. As someone who experiences almost daily someone who is very very free with their NO, it’s not ok to be callous, rude, pushy, demeaning etc when you are standing up for yourself.
It’s okay to say no, sure, but try to be considerate and take other people’s feelings into consideration when you deliver that message. Make sure you understand the situation, no soap boxes required, explaining can help. Sure honey, I will cut the lawn this week, sorry not today though animals are setting up dens and weeds are growing rampant, I’m writing… That would be fine. Cough., Do it yourself if you don’t like it. Not so much. saying no doesn’t have to be rude, people get offended when you ask something when they have this assertive mentality as their hotspot.
No thank you, I’m full. Good. Host insists. Really, it looks wonderful but I couldn’t eat a bite more. If still insisted, the need for aggression or soap boxing is not always required. Understanding yes, is it said in a teasing, cajoling tone? Are you watching your weight? Was dinner light or heavy? Does the host have reason to think you are hungry still? Did they spend 4 hours making it because they heard you love cheesecake and they used their family recipe? Sometimes saying, I’m really full but maybe I can have a forkful just to see and next time I’ll leave room… Can be a very considerate answer.
All I’m saying is your right to NO does not invalidate another person’s right to consideration, understanding their position, and treating THEM with respect. Saying no, requires respect and an explanation. Understanding is part of relationships but rudeness and no without any explanation is frankly friendship breaking.
Two sides to every coin… And that’s my two cents.
Jo Walton
June 12, 2012 @ 8:42 am
In many cultures, refusing food in somebody’s house is a refusal of hospitality and a refusal of friendship. If your friend who pushed you to just take one came from one of those cultures, she’s probably assuming that she has offended you in some way and you no longer want to know her. So it can be a whole lot more complicated — your boundary is not the only thing going on here.
To take this to extremes, if somebody was bleeding in the street and asked for help, you’d have the right to say no and walk on, and yet if they cried out again would you turn on them where they lie bleeding and say they should respect your boundaries? This is a spectrum between people pushing too hard at boundaries at one end and people being downright rude at the other.
Dispatches from the land of ‘no’ (5×8 – 6/12/12)
June 12, 2012 @ 9:57 am
[…] Jim Hines says people need to respect the word “no” more… Your confusion, your hurt feelings, the fact that you don’t like someone telling you no, […]
ookpik
June 12, 2012 @ 10:05 am
It is, alas, an extraordinary act of kindness. In the past, I often had the experience of the friend described above (that is, the pain wasn’t unusual for me), and most men I was with did NOT stop. And I particularly remember (not fondly!) the one who did stop–because I flinched away so hard that he could not continue–and then said, “Get out!” I did, but as I was getting dressed I said, “You know, you don’t have to be that way about this. It hurt, I couldn’t help it.” His response was, “Gee, I thought I was doing pretty well because I didn’t hit you!”
HelenS
June 12, 2012 @ 4:14 pm
The version I learned made a lot more sense: to set things up so that you don’t have to say “No” absolutely constantly. Life with my son when he was tiny was much happier when we got the place seriously babyproofed and he could play appropriately without my having to follow him around taking things away from him and pulling him off the dining-room table and so forth. He wasn’t doing it to get attention (as he played happily for reasonable periods by himself when he had nothing but safe things to do) and he really didn’t yet have the wherewithal to learn to not touch or not climb or whatever. (By “by himself,” at this period, I mean I wasn’t having to be right in his face every minute, not that I was ignoring him.)
Epiphyta
June 12, 2012 @ 5:09 pm
I have several serious food allergies. Would you prefer that I regale the host with a detailed explanation of what will happen if I sample said delicacy, thereby putting the other guests off their feed? Or do you think they would rather make the emergency room run with me, forgoing the remaining evening’s entertainment?
If “No, thank you”, in those circumstances, is insufficient for someone’s delicate fee-fees, I am actually okay with that being a “friendship-breaking moment”.
Alana
June 12, 2012 @ 6:31 pm
I think people have made some good points. I agree strongly with the
post with some caveats:
First, I think if someone is offering something ( referred to above as “Italian grandmother syndrome”) one can politely say,” no” and recognize a cultural value different from oneself. In fact the big caveat is that advocated by Miss Manners (Judith Martin, whose etiquette column specializes in advocating manners that don’t require being a doormat) which is that everyone should learn to say, “no” politely, ad nauseum if necessary, without ever giving an explanation or excuse (because those can be countered). In other words, your friend tries to invite themselves
Over when you wanted to trim your nose hairs: oh, I’m sorry, I really just can’t.
But it’s the only time I’m in town
Yes, I’m so sorry that I won’t get to see you, but it’s just impossible.
Why is it impossible? What’s going on?
I’m so sorry that I can’t, it’s just impossible then. Pity!
Repeat indefinitely.
This is different than people who don’t back the f off or quit doing something painful or dangerous. That’s not just a forceful,”no” but accompanied by whatever force one can muster. The comments about the women whose partners wouldn’t stop, or we’re angry about stopping in a sexual act? The first ought to have an assault charge filed and the latter dropped and never seen again, and cut if ever run into in public. The first is a criminal and both have sociopathic tendencies (see people as
Objects, not agents).
Jim C. Hines
June 12, 2012 @ 7:25 pm
I’d still argue that it’s an act of basic decency, but one that comes across as an extraordinary kindness because it’s so damned rare. And that is horribly depressing and messed up.
I’m both sorry and angry that people have treated you like that. You deserve so much better.
Kathleen R
June 12, 2012 @ 8:39 pm
What’s wrong with saying I’m allergic. Enough said, we are adults and know about food allergies But as a host I always ask if there are any food allergies when planning a meal.
I’m sure you certainly wouldn’t be rude about it 🙂 or soap box if you didn’t tell people why. People just want to be good hosts, not stuff you 😉
Setting Boundaries Can Make You a Better Writer and a Better Person | So Shiny
June 12, 2012 @ 10:49 pm
[…] friend Jim C. Hines wrote a good blog post about personal boundaries using a brownie-pushing coworker as a stepping off point. The post and […]
Anke
June 13, 2012 @ 10:28 am
It very much depends on the situation. There is a WORLD of difference between being offered a piece of cake, and being pressured for sex, for example.
That reminds me of a discussion in another forum I read years ago.
A girl was being harrassed by a boy who did things like invading her personal space when they were standing in line in the school cafeteria and telling her “You’re cute when you’re scared”. When he asked her out she told him no because he was creeping her out.
There were actually guys in that thread who went “the poor guy”, and had explained to them that giving sympathy to the creep who was harrassing her was in effect telling HER that she should have disregarded her instincts and given that guy who enjoys seeing her scared a chance.
Sounds like that obsession with “You need to be considerate of OTHER people’s feelings [more than your own]” contributes to girls and women getting into abusive relationships, or getting raped by coercion.
Anke
June 13, 2012 @ 10:28 am
That was meant as a reply to Kathleen R
Kathleen R
June 13, 2012 @ 12:05 pm
I couldn’t agree more. I was using subtlety to imply saying NO isn’t a soap box issue all the time. You have to apply both explanation, understanding and forcefulness based on the situation. Obviously sex is a place no should always be respected and forcefully applied if insistence continues. But cake, well not so much…
It’s when people get their messages crossed like it should be a rule across all situations that you end up with hurt feelings and lost friendships. Jim’s message seemed to imply to me that it’s ok to soap box no matter the situation and that NO is always NO and no niceness or explanation is ever required. I agree no should be respected, but do you have to make others recoil when confronted with the soap box over cake? Sex yes, cake no. Politeness always required and people who don’t take no politely, well they aren’t people you want in your life or to be dating…
Jim C. Hines
June 13, 2012 @ 12:08 pm
I’m a bit confused. If someone offers me food and I say no thank you and expect that to be respected, how exactly am I confronting anyone with a soap box or making others recoil?
LongHairedWeirdo
June 13, 2012 @ 7:35 pm
You raise a very good point, but there’s a lot of things to consider.
Some people are so afraid of being seen as callous, pushy, rude, or demeaning that they won’t say a loud, firm, emphatic “no!” They need to know that, up until their personal safety is assured, and their boundaries properly respected, they are 100% in the right to be defending themselves.
I’d rather have a few rude “no” incidents than a few times when it wasn’t said, or wasn’t honored.
And sometimes people need a harsh “no” to help them realize they *are* violating boundaries, so they can wake up to the effect they’re having on others.
But, yes, obviously, if clueless-git is violating personal boundaries, and clueless-git can be pushed outside of said boundaries gently (but firmly), that’s better than using a stove length of wood. (Assuming, of course, that this is a true clueless-git, and not a faux-clueless-git playing on the sympathy people have for the clueless.)
So, my advice is, first – protect the boundaries. Then, learn to do so more gently, when you reasonably can.
Rowan
June 14, 2012 @ 3:37 pm
I’m British, so I come from a culture that sees it as rude / greedy to accept something the first time. I still agree with what Jim said. In British culture, the host or person offering something should then re-offer it a second time, and possibly a third depending on circumstances. Then they accept the answer if the guest says no. The host doesn’t get to keep pushing the desired object on the guest. If it’s a courting situation, the “host” has no right to engage in physical intimacy if you have said no. The “guest” still has the right to set their boundaries.
Just because British manners mean that you have to refuse something* twice, it doesn’t mean that you have no right of refusal. It also doesn’t mean that your host is disrespecting your boundaries, it’s just that in Britain there is a slightly different procedure for showing where the boundaries are.
*”Something” being offers of food, hospitality etc. If someone makes a sexual advance and you refuse it, they’re not supposed to try a second time.
D. Moonfire
June 18, 2012 @ 12:51 am
I completely agree, boundaries are something that we don’t establish well. I’m fat and I’ve had the “homemade cheesecake” problem more than a few times; even when I’m saying “I need to say no, because I’m having trouble resisting,” I frequently get the “then just finish off this bowl for us.” Frustrating actually, because I’m telling them I have a problem and they keep pushing at it.
The discussion about children and “no” reminded me of why Sesame Street made Mr. Snuffleupagus visible. It was to help children realize there was a point when invisible friends needed to cease being there. Part of it was because of what was going on at the time, but also to help transition from that to letting parents know about the people they might not believe in (which also included people who made children uncomfortable). I think there is the same point when you go from ignoring boundaries (I have to ignore when EDM signs “all done” at dinner because he isn’t done) to when it becomes something that needs to be respected.
Charlene
June 19, 2012 @ 3:22 pm
I wish that were true. Many, MANY people will take that as a cue to tell you that you’re a lying attention hog, to slip the allergen into your food secretly to “prove” that you’re a lying attention hog, to belittle and belittle you, or even to blame your mother for brainwashing you into thinking you have allergies. They might continue to press the food on you.
Too many people think allergies are fake lying attention-hog nonsense. My life is not worth engaging with them in any way. If they don’t take a polite no thanks, I don’t explain, ever: I just disengage.
Leona
June 19, 2012 @ 3:34 pm
This is an excellent article and should be taught to everybody. Both for those of us who need to be better at establishing boundaries and for those that can’t seem to respect them. Thank you.
Misha
June 19, 2012 @ 3:53 pm
There’s a reason for that (at least in my circles); plenty of people who ARE attention hogs/drama queens HAVE claimed to be allergic to things when anyone who had hung out with them for more than a few weeks had seen with their own eyes that that wasn’t true (such as the girl who insisted she was allergic to mushrooms, but weeks previously had insisted we go to a particular restaurant so she could try the mushroom soup that a reviewer had raved about; or the gent who would only agree to certain chinese restaurants because ‘he was allergic to msg’, but all of the ones he liked used msg, advertised in their window and menu that they did and you could request your food without it, and yet he never asked them not to use it). One bad apple, and all that.
That being said, I am allergic to a couple of things, and my friends who cook know about them and do their best to accomodate, whether by just letting me know a particular dish has that ingredient, or making an alternate sauce without it, or choosing not to make that kind of food when they’ve invited me – all without my asking them to do it. That’s why they’re my friends 🙂
It sucks you’ve run into too many assholes; I’m very glad I haven’t,since my allergies are weird ones that would be all too likely to make that type of person sure I was lying… well, at least until I was laying on their floor, vomiting on their carpet and messing my pants.
Yes, that’s happened.
Kelasia
June 19, 2012 @ 7:41 pm
I don’t understand trying to create hypothetical situations where saying no based on YOUR comfort level is acceptable. There are no rules to it, it’s up to you at that time…in that space. You can’t tell me what I can say no to or how I can say it, isn’t that the authors point here? If I am constantly saying no to you in a rude manner then NEWSFLASH I am not your friend. Friends don’t treat each other that way. It is then up to you to set boundaries and check me or cut me off. Great article sir, I agree wholeheartedly. No No No No No…music to my ears!
EMoon
June 25, 2012 @ 9:16 pm
Boundary issues have ended several friendships for me. Boundary issues are still a huge problem with in-laws. But it’s still hard, both to say “No, thanks” (or “Hell no!”) and to accept the Nos that sit on the cultural boundaries I grew up in. Food: that one’s loaded on both sides, both outgoing and incoming Nos. So are invitations to do things. Thing is, if I want mine respected, I have to respect the other guy’s. And be firm about my own.
“Want some help with that?” “Nope, I’m fine.” “OK.”
“Anyone want some dessert?” Chorus of nos. “OK.” (Even though I have dessert hiding out in the pantry or something.)
Totally agree that my having put work into a meal does not mean someone has to eat it. My having hand-knit a gift does not mean someone has to wear it (or even accept it.) My thinking it would be fun to see a movie with a friend does not mean the friend has to want to see that movie with me.
Still not perfect at it, in either direction. I often choose to offer an explanation (most recently to pulling out of a choir concert during the week before it, because I realized I couldn’t get my edits done by the deadline and do the music. Choir master was disappointed, but said “You have to do the work first. We’ll be fine.”) It may be as simple as “Can’t talk now; really busy.” Anyone who can’t accept the explanation isn’t someone I need to be around. And yet I still get sucked in by “It’ll only take a minute” and “You’re the only person we know who could…” and the word “need” (“We need your help/input/response” etc.)
Still tempted to think the reason for “No” needs to be “big enough”–still falling into guilt when the “No” means “I just don’t want to/don’t feel like it.” Stuff needs doing; do it…that’s the background. Lots of labeling (not all from parent, either) about being “lazy” and “uncooperative” and “selfish” if I didn’t want to do something others wanted me to do.
The cultural thing…needs to run two ways, same as boundary respect. Without expecting either to change, both need to accept that not everyone grew up next door, and realize that the No isn’t elastic on the second asking. (And also realize that acceptance on first offer is a cultural difference, not an intentional rudeness.)
Great post; thanks for it.
lee
July 17, 2012 @ 10:48 pm
A friend told me “never ask a question if it isn’t OK if the answer is NO” which made a big impression on me. It means I can distinguish between orders and requests, between safety issues and behaviour issues and preference issues much more easily.
Wendy S. Delmater
July 19, 2012 @ 1:54 pm
What Jo Walton is referring to–unwritten hospitality rules about food in some ethnicities–is something very common in certain cultures I was exposed heavily to in the NY Metropolitan area. Italians and Greeks, especially, were fairly insistent. However, once you decoded it you understood that you had to refuse them three times: once in case they were being inconvenienced by feeding you, once to say that you were not mortally hungry, and once to say that you were truly not interested in even a taste. It was a social dance. They respected that third “no” and left you alone.
Similar rules applied to who paid for a dinner in a restaurant.
Those who know me know I make no bones about being a child rape survivor (as it should not cause stigma – I was a VICTIM). So of course I agree wholeheartedly that “no means no” as regards the issue of touching. But I think food is a grey area due to many cultural issues – with one exception.
I believe you should NEVER force a child to eat a food they cannot stand. I always insisted my three sons at least taste new things, for how else would they learn what they liked and disliked? But if they did not like something after tasting it, they were free not to eat it.
Sarah
July 28, 2012 @ 4:07 pm
I had similar experiences with being tickled as a child that were a component in me withdrawing from my body to a large degree for decades. Enough already. It’s not cute, it’s creepy.
Richard
August 5, 2012 @ 1:04 pm
A lot of talk about sexual situations and food.
A third I’d like to mention is about how we raise our kids.
We chose not to celebrate Halloween in our family.
When asked why by some our friends and family, and after explaining, we are told that we are being ridiculous. By the time my mother-in-law said that we “have to” let our kids dress up for Halloween. It was already to the point where I emphatically told her, “No we don’t HAVE to, and we’re not going to”
I learned later that I made her cry, and my wife was very glad it was me and not her that finally had to put our foot down harder. But from that point on we both received a greater amount of respect on other issues regarding our child rearing.
Not that there isn’t still the occaisional boundary push.
I’ve recently been told by this same person, after a lenghty back and forth about it, that it was ridiculous that I don’t have a cell phone. Finally I gave up argueing, smiled and said, “Well I guess I’m ridiculous then.”
Please, if someone doesn’t want to engage themselves or their family with a certain behaviour, and it it no way affects you, just politely let them “miss out” on what you think is so great.
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