False Rape Reports
After my Rape and the Police post, I said I’d do a follow-up on false reports of rape. I do this for two reasons.
- False reports do happen, albeit rarely. Rare or not, they’re worth discussing.
- By posting this discussion here, the next time I talk about rape and someone starts to derail the conversation by talking about false accusations, I can redirect the commenter to this post.
The issue of false accusations used to come up every time I spoke to men about rape. It’s come up in almost every rape-related blog post I’ve written.
I worked with one rape counselor who told me flat-out she didn’t believe anyone would ever falsely accuse someone of rape. However, I find there’s nothing so heinous that someone, somewhere, hasn’t done it. (After all, look at the number of people who commit rape.)
I’ve been told only 2% of reported rapes turn out to be false, but I’ve never found a reliable source for that statistic. A 1996 FBI report found that “Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were ‘unfounded’ …” This includes complaints found to be “false or baseless” … and therein lies a problem.
What qualifies as an unfounded report? Many reported rapes aren’t prosecuted because those in the legal system don’t feel there’s sufficient evidence. That doesn’t mean the accuser lied. Likewise, is “baseless” the same as “false”? How do we categorize or even identify cases where victims are bullied or intimidated into retracting their statements?
Playing fast and loose with definitions is how you get “Men’s Rights” groups reporting highly inflated numbers of false reports in order to show that rape is exaggerated and used as a weapon against men.
I believe false reports of rape are rare, but they do happen. I wrote about one case in Michigan, back in 2004. A student falsely accused a teacher of rape. The teacher’s name was published in multiple newspaper articles. The accused teacher’s fiancee was quoted as saying the false charges “took their toll on him,” and he later died of a heart attack.
I can’t imagine the fear and the anger and the stress he must have experienced. The fact that he was exonerated and his accuser was arrested and sentenced for filing false charges doesn’t undo the pain he went through.
Here’s another example from Maine, which was reported only yesterday. A woman allegedly made up a story of being raped by five men after a fight with her partner. I can’t help noticing this line…
“[Police Chief] Craig said he plans to have the woman charged with filing a false report and plans to push for the maximum penalty.”
… and thinking, wouldn’t it be nice if police departments took real rape cases this seriously?
Lying about rape is a horrible thing. It hurts the one accused, and it hurts victims of rape by giving fuel to those who would use false accusations to deny the reality of rape. I have absolutely no sympathy for someone who deliberately and maliciously makes up an accusation of rape, for whatever reason.
I wonder though, how many anecdotal stories of false accusations are truly false. When someone comments how a friend’s cousin’s buddy was falsely accused of rape, what does that mean? Were charges filed and dropped? Did the accuser retract her (or his) accusation? Did the accused say “She’s lying!” and everyone simply chose to believe him?
False accusations are in many ways the reverse of rape cases. Rape as a crime tends to be underreported and disbelieved. Stories of false accusations, on the other hand, seem to be both widely believed and incredibly common … which makes sense, in a way. After all, the first thing someone’s going to say when accused of rape is, “Oh, she’s lying.”
Discussion welcome, as always. But as with other rape-related discussions here, I’ll be watching the comments and will moderate as needed, so please keep things respectful.
Steven saus
July 21, 2010 @ 10:07 am
To avoid rehashing (and putting my foot in my mouth again):
As someone who was falsely accused as a teenager of sexual assault (not even officially, just through the rumor mill), it took a huge toll on my life.
But I still think we should take rape cases seriously and NEVER assume the woman survivor is lying.
After all, we don’t assume someone’s lying when they report a mugging. Why do we assume differently for rape cases?
Jim C. Hines
July 21, 2010 @ 10:28 am
Thanks, Steven. It does take a toll, both officially and unofficially.
But yeah, I don’t get why “She’s lying” is so often the default assumption for talking about rape.
Steven Saus
July 21, 2010 @ 10:52 am
I think it’s part of male privelege. It’s structural – so much so that we don’t consciously think about it until we learn differently.
D. Moonfire
July 21, 2010 @ 11:23 am
While I haven’t encountered a false rape report, I have seen a close member of my family suddenly announce she was raped too, but only after everyone else in the room was going on about about their childhood rapes. However, I didn’t believe said family member since they have a rather, let’s say, fluid creation of their childhood and it came off as “me too”. But, she wasn’t accusing anyone, just trying to jump on the bandwagon of suffering, as it were.
Now, I have other close members who have been (one reason for my opinions) who I do believe, but I honestly think I’ve seen people (female in this case) faking a tragic past simply for attention.
Steven Saus
July 21, 2010 @ 11:40 am
Here’s the thing (in two parts):
1 You can’t know if they’re lying or not. You weren’t there.
2 I think doing it for attention is pretty rare. Why? First, anonymous surveys have consistently pegged 2/3 to 3/4 of the college-aged female population as survivors of some kind of sexual assault. With any given woman, just by statistics alone, the odds are good that they’re telling the truth. Secondly, being a survivor of rape is still a stigma. I don’t understand why it’s a stigma – but it is. The concept of so-called honor killings is pretty alien to the global West – instead, we simply assassinate the woman’s character.
D. Moonfire
July 21, 2010 @ 12:59 pm
(Bah, there is a long answer to this, but it won’t help that much.)
Yes, I can never know if they are telling the truth. I can’t know for any of the other fantastic stories they tell are also true. I have looked into a few of them, but they ended up being complete fabrications. I haven’t found a single story she has told that ended up even having a bit of truth. Because of that, I make the assumption she was lying.
Now, is that because she was raped and needed to heal herself or because she needs to be the center of attention? I can’t tell you that. Most of the people around her (former husband, children, co-workers) all assume that all her stories (including the rape one) are lies, simply because they are too fantastic to be true.
Anna Maria
July 21, 2010 @ 5:02 pm
For the sake of the argument, let’s assume your relative is lying about being raped. She’s saying “I was raped” to her family in order to get sympathy. She’s not going down to the police station and filing charges against a specific person. I assume (if she’s lying) that she named her attacker as someone who couldn’t refute her claims, someone your family no longer has contact with. He’ll probably never hear of her claim. It’s still a terrible thing to lie about, but your relative’s actions seem pretty benign.
But fantastic and seemingly contradictory stories of her childhood don’t rule out that she’s telling the truth. I try to be tight lipped about my childhood with people who don’t know me well, because all of the different things that have happened to me give my life a “soap opera” quality, and people assume that I can’t keep my lies straight. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
Gary Forbis
July 21, 2010 @ 6:11 pm
False accusations are reported in the news all the time, while real rapes are rarely reported unless someone famous is involved or there is a series of attacks. I understand the reason is to protect victims – after all a rape victim should have her privacy protected, but a false accusation gets aired because there is no need to be sensitive about that. That leads people to perceive that false accusations happen often while actual rapes do not.
In addition to that, I was present at a party which led to a false rape accusation. I can definitively say that morally speaking it was a false accusation – in fact most of the people there could attest to that since they were very indiscreet. Legally it is a little murky because there was alcohol involved. I don’t know if it reached the level of a police report or not. I suspect not since I was never asked to be a witness.
I’ve been involved in a couple situations in which it was amply demonstrated that certain women have no problem lying about such things – not to the level of a false police report, but to stir up drama for whatever reason. In fact, I even had a girlfriend who suggested the first time we slept together was non-consensual, despite the fact that she was the one who suggested I sleep in her bed rather than on her couch and suggested that we fully undress.
I don’t know anyone on the other side of the coin (discounting abuse). I can’t really help that all of my personal exposure to rape has been of the false-accusation variety, but that certainly colors my perception of rape accusations. When faced with an incongruity between personal experience and statistics, I think the mind can’t help but go with personal experience. That mind tells me that barring an actual violent attack, the subject is probably too complicated to meaningfully discuss as a cohesive category.
On a completely other subject – I’ve noticed that all of the fields here to leave a reply are filled with a bunch of spaces by default and I have to delete them. I looked at it and I think it is due to breaking the line between the quotes in the value=”” of the fields. Or maybe it is because I’m using Chrome.
Steven Saus
July 21, 2010 @ 6:40 pm
First – yeah, I see the whitespace too, in both IE & FF.
Second, Gary, I’d suggest that you’re unaware of anyone who has been sexually assaulted, rather than you don’t know anyone who has been sexually assaulted. They’re two very, very different things. Think about your statement that “we have to protect the [survivors]”. That inherently says that there’s a stigma to protect against.
I strongly urge you to read these two entries of mine: I can hold her down and On Men On Rape. (If you absolutely can’t bear to read more than one thing, read this excerpt from Tim Beneke’s Men On Rape. The world that women walk through is a very different one than the one you (since I’m assuming you’re a man named Gary), I, or Jim walk through whether we like it or not.
Jim C. Hines
July 21, 2010 @ 8:38 pm
“I don’t know anyone on the other side of the coin (discounting abuse).”
With most commenters I can’t really say this, but in your case, I can tell you that yes you do. (I obviously can’t/won’t get any more specific than that.)
I’m a little uncertain about the party example you describe. Alcohol does tend to complicate things. For example, someone might be behaving with few inhibitions, but what does it mean if they’re too drunk to truly consent? (There’s a reason men learn to use alcohol as one technique to try to score.)
Re: the forms on the site, thank you. I’ve noticed that as well, and while it’s annoying, I’ve never dug into it enough to track down the cause. I’m not sure whether that’s something I can change — the WordPress theme is highly customizable, but I’ve already broken it once before trying to tweak things — but I’ll see what I can do. Gracias!
Steve Buchheit
July 21, 2010 @ 8:42 pm
Okay, let’s say that whole 8% is actual false claims. Less than 1 in 10. Pretty damn low. Considering the FBI also estimates that less than half of actual rapes are reported, it’s damn low. We’re getting close to the 1% doctrine.
Jim C. Hines
July 21, 2010 @ 8:45 pm
If you compare the actual estimates as to the number of rapes vs. the number of false reports, there’s no comparison whatsoever.
Jim C. Hines
July 22, 2010 @ 8:21 am
Are you guys still getting the whitespace?
Linda Ward
July 22, 2010 @ 9:11 am
I don’t believe that we should assume that the male survivor is lying either. It’s not only women who are raped. And men are far less likely to come forward and admit it happened to them, possibly because they don’t believe that anyone will believe them and/or the shame of admitting they were raped.
Jim C. Hines
July 22, 2010 @ 9:19 am
Also true and valid, thanks.
I’ve worked with male and female rape survivors both. In general though, when I hear stories of false reports, it’s almost always a woman who’s allegedly lying about rape.
Linda Ward
July 22, 2010 @ 9:28 am
True, but also in general, the amount of time you hear of a man being raped, particularly if it is not a case of male on male rape, is probably about the same as the amount of time you hear of a woman making a false report of rape. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a similar level of false reports from men as there are from women, but as far fewer incidents are reported in the first place, there would be far fewer false report incidents as well.
There is a certain level of disbelief on the part of most people that it would be even possible for a woman to rape a man. And male on male rape has a even larger stigma than that of a woman raped by a man, from what I’ve seen. And if the victim doesn’t believe the police will believe them (and believes, if male on male, anyone else they tell will suddenly start treating them with the stigma of being gay as well as being raped), why report it or tell anyone?
Jim C. Hines
July 22, 2010 @ 9:34 am
“…in general, the amount of time you hear of a man being raped, particularly if it is not a case of male on male rape, is probably about the same as the amount of time you hear of a woman making a false report of rape.”
Can you clarify what you mean by this? People talk about women lying and making up rape accusations fairly often, whereas discussion of male rape victims seems to be pretty limited. That’s been my perception, at least. I might be misunderstanding what you mean.
But I definitely agree with you about the challenges and stigmas of being a male rape victim.
Linda Ward
July 22, 2010 @ 9:41 am
I mean percentage-wise. As in if you see 1 out of 100 women making a false report, the same could be true of men, but as far fewer men actually report being raped, there will be far fewer false reports of men being raped.
Kevin Maclean
July 22, 2010 @ 10:25 am
Excellent piece, as usual. It seems to me that a lower percentage of false accusations would be formally reported than of true accusations, (though I can think of several reasons why this might not be so). However, I’m going to have to accept that that is one of those things I’ll never know.
Now, you’ve mentioned alcohol as a clouding issue, but I’m going to throw pills into the mix. Face it, anyone who has taken 20+ Mogadons won’t _know_ whether they consented or not. (I’ve always assumed anyone that intoxicated was incapable of consent, but some of my ex-co-workers were not so punctilious, especially when they’d dropped a similar number of pills.)
People do some really stupid things. Taking judgement-affecting drugs in non-safe environments (like nightclubs) is one of the stupidest.
Jim C. Hines
July 22, 2010 @ 10:28 am
Oh, definitely. Any substance, legal or illegal, that clouds your judgment to the point where you’re unable to consent…
I agree that people do stupid things, but I also think it’s important to remember that taking drugs doesn’t make you responsible for someone else’s decision to rape you.
Gary Forbis
July 22, 2010 @ 11:27 am
It is fixed everywhere except for the email field.
Jim C. Hines
July 22, 2010 @ 11:30 am
D’oh! So close. Okay, thanks! I’ll go back and keep digging when I have a moment.
Gary Forbis
July 22, 2010 @ 11:46 am
I find it interesting that in the case where a man and a woman have both been drinking, the man can be found guilty of rape based on her inability to consent (not talking about where she says no but is too drunk to resist, or is unconscious when sex is initiated). I’m not saying that drunk women should be fair game, but picking up women in a bar is a reality. I’ve known women to go to the bar specifically to get drunk and hook up – even when they know they will feel remorse in the morning.
I guess that was what I meant about the whole subject being too complex to discuss as a whole. Non-violent rape is pretty complex for anyone not participating to judge – especially those of us without the education and training. I mean, I think that the intent combined with the action should be punished, but it is nearly impossible to absolutely determine intent after-the-fact. What do you do when the woman honestly does feel raped and the man honestly had no intent or awareness of doing so? I think that is a sad situation, but criminal? But again, how to you determine the lack of intent? Proving the negative is even harder than proving the positive.
This isn’t a very fun subject 🙁
Kevin Maclean
July 22, 2010 @ 12:14 pm
Or their decision to commit any of the many other crimes you leave yourself open to…
Kevin Maclean
July 22, 2010 @ 12:25 pm
It could be pretty darn complex for the participants to judge, too. We’re not telepaths.
Veronika
July 23, 2010 @ 6:30 am
Jim, you are amazing, that you can write about such painful things! You are so brave and sensitive! I admire you.
I think similar as you. It happens, but it is very very rare. More often is different opinion from male and female perspective – woman it feels as rape, man not.
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 9:02 am
It’s definitely not fun, but I do think it’s important to talk about.
I agree that it’s easiest when it’s a straightforward case, which is the kind you hear about more often: A stranger using a weapon and physical force against the victim.
A lot of people ask “What if they were both drinking?” which is a valid question, and it depends. Very often, the fact that two people are drinking doesn’t mean they’re equally intoxicated. Particularly in cases where alcohol is being used as a tactic. How often do you see both people completely smashed, as opposed to one person being drunk while the other is still pretty much in control?
For cases where both people are drunk beyond the ability to consent … I don’t have a good answer for that one, except maybe that in a perfect world, their friends would step in. (I don’t imagine that would be an easy or pleasant conversation, but I think it’s important.)
Regarding intent, I can say with no doubt whatsoever that rapes are sometimes committed by people who had no intention to commit rape, and no understanding that what they did was rape. Partly that goes back to the lack of discussion and education. “Hey, she crashed at my place, and she was sleeping on my couch, so she must have wanted it.” (I worked with several people who had awakened in the midst of being raped after crashing at a “friend’s” house.) I doubt those men would have identified their acts as rape, but I don’t think that changes anything.
Gary Forbis
July 23, 2010 @ 9:07 am
Erp…. maybe I should just add for the record that the girl in my story above (about me) was fully awake and aware of what was going on. Nor was there any drinking.
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 9:16 am
It’s early, and I wasn’t even thinking of your comment above. I hope mine didn’t come off as accusatory.
Veronika
July 23, 2010 @ 10:54 am
She probably wanted only petting. Girls are usually similar naive and innocent as small children (maybe it is because Nature want them to be seduced and to have children)? I was such sad case, too. My boyfriend is often desperate from me – and from our young female friends. He told that if we will have daughter, he will be very strict father (end evil toward her suitors). :o)
Women don´t understand thinking and behaving of men. They can (and must!) learn about it (esp. for sexually behaviour), but they can´t to know it. They can´t. We (men and women) are so much different that we can´t naturally understand each others.
(I read recently some books by John Gray, Mars-Venus series, and I was astonished – and I am adult and I live with my boyfriend 13 years!)
We must simply learn about it. But, how can girls (and boys) know about it? They can´t. Very sad and painful thing. Nature was not wise in it…
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 11:12 am
Hi Veronika,
Am I right to guess that English isn’t your first language? (As someone who speaks only English, I wish I could speak another language this well.)
“But, how can girls (and boys) know about it? They can´t.”
I disagree. There are some natural differences, but I think an awful lot of the differences are also taught and learned. I think the best way to start to understand is to talk, and more importantly to listen.
I don’t agree that girls are naive or like small children, either … though I think that’s how society has tried to train them, historically. But I think there’s a difference between society (men?) trying to push women into that helpless role vs. that being a natural part of being female, if that makes sense?
Best,
Jim
Veronika
July 23, 2010 @ 11:55 am
Yes. :o) I am Czech. I can read good (modern books, too – but I have problems with older ones in more difficult language) in English, but I am not much good in writing, I know it. :o)
Thank you! I wish I would be better… Maybe in future. :o)
I understand.
You can have right in in. “Gender” (as learned behaviour of men and women) is much more important that sex (as natural behaviour).
But girls aswell boys should learn from their parents. If their fathers would be more wise and teach their daughers more about sexuality (as my boyfriend taught me later in our relationship), girls would have much less problems in their lives! /Also, if we would have daughter, she would be more happy that I was./
Girls are not aware of danger in male sexuality (don´t understand it), because their one is very different. I wasn´t (and my was). :o)
With lovingly boyfrind/husband and very much talking it is O. K. But without him…
My own beginning was very painful. (Alas, my boyfriend was not first man in my life. Before him, I shortly meet another one – and was very hurt by him. It was no rape, but very ugly experience for me. My boyfriend told me later that I was silly, that every man would understand it – but I can´t know it and I can´t understand it. Because it I believe that girls are naive and innocent if they are not taught understanding by some wise man/men/woman/women :o) – or hurt.) It is not their guilt.
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
There’s no need to apologize. You write in English far better than I could write in Czech 🙂
I think you’re right, that a lot could be improved if there was more effort to talk about both sex and relationships, and to help both boys and girls learn what is and is not okay.
D. Moonfire
July 23, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
Reminds me of something said at a mandatory sexual harassment workshop at a festival I went to: “The problem with common sense is that it isn’t common. You can’t make the assumption that everyone understands the same things as you.” Of course, the entire point of that workshop (mandatory to all festival goers) is to create a common baseline of exceptions and give do’s and don’ts.
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
“You can’t make the assumption that everyone understands the same things as you.”
Yep. And yet we’re taught that the physical/sexual side of a relationship is something that shouldn’t be talked about. You should “just know when the moment’s right” without having to ask or discuss it.
That’s a recipe for bad things if I ever heard one.
Gary Forbis
July 23, 2010 @ 4:35 pm
Steven,
I finally had a chance to look over those links. I’m not sure exactly what they are supposed to convey. Lets just say I can’t relate to that point of view. I’m also uncertain how you feel they apply to what I said so I think I will not address them further.
On the other hand, something you said here inspires thought: “anonymous surveys have consistently pegged 2/3 to 3/4 of the college-aged female population as survivors of some kind of sexual assault.” I’m not going to dispute that figure – I’ve seen it before myself, but I do question it. Because if true, then it doesn’t seem to be as big a factor in future health and happiness as I had believed. I’m not trying to say rape is no big deal, but that statistic seems incongruous with the idea that rape is devastating to victims (which, incidentally, is not an idea I’m questioning). Otherwise, why isn’t there a significant population of women over college age with PTSD and similar disorders? Or was dad right and women ARE all crazy?
I know. Misogynistic humor in a rape thread is pretty tasteless. I will accept whatever scolding is deemed necessary. I also apologize if I seem argumentative – I am compelled to challenge assumptions wherever I encounter them.
Gary Forbis
July 23, 2010 @ 4:56 pm
Hmmm… I sometimes hang out in circles where it is heavily discussed – because they like to walk a very fine line. It is critical to work out exactly where that line is. I’ve learned more about human nature from them than anything else in my life.
D. Moonfire
July 23, 2010 @ 4:59 pm
I agree. Secrecy is probably the worse thing that can be done because it discourages people from talking about when it happens, if it happens, or what is really happening. It becomes a black box problem, you don’t know what is going on inside (because it is dirty, wrong, what-have-you) and you can only see the end results. This leads into the “she wanted it” or “all men are rapists” (I grew up in a female-dominated environment, I heard that a lot) arguments to continue, because we refuse to look at all the social stuff around sexuality in general and rape in specific.
Might explain why I’m so open, though. Less questions when every one is frank and honest.
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 7:16 pm
Gary,
Just because you don’t see something doesn’t mean it’s not real.
Just because you don’t believe you know anyone who’s been raped doesn’t mean you don’t. It just means nobody has chosen to tell you.
Just because you don’t see visible mental and emotional scarring doesn’t mean the damage isn’t there.
The statistics I’ve found usually suggest between 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 women are raped in their lifetimes. The fact that they — or the roughly 1 in 10 men who are raped — don’t walk around wearing exposed wounds on their sleeves doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Being raped doesn’t generally destroy a person’s ability to be happy and healthy. It is traumatic. It is painful. And it’s even harder trying to find the few people you can trust to believe you and treat you with respect.
Mysogenistic jokes during discussions of rape are a good way to let people know you’re probably not one of those people.
Steven Saus
July 23, 2010 @ 9:41 pm
Gary:
It means that your experiences and concerns as a male just walking around in the world are categorically and qualitatively different than those of a female.
You do not have to wonder if you’ll be raped every time you walk to your car after a night class.
You do not have to wonder if your partner will ever turn violent, and how you’ll survive then.
In your experience (and mine), wondering if you’ll be raped is not a constant worrying fear. For women in our society, it very typically is.
Steven Saus
July 23, 2010 @ 9:46 pm
And really, Gary, nobody needs to scold you. By making misogynistic jokes in a rape thread, you managed to look like an asshat all on your own. Acknowledging that you knew your “joke” was tasteless simply shows everybody that you meant to be an asshat… which will make them wonder what other words of yours fall in that category as well.
Jim C. Hines
July 23, 2010 @ 10:00 pm
Steven,
I know you’re having a really lousy night, and I know and appreciate how passionately you feel about this subject. But I don’t think this helps.
Shoot me an e-mail if you want?
Thanks,
Jim
Gary Forbis
July 23, 2010 @ 11:02 pm
I must have miscommunicated something. Happens from too much editing for tone, topic and brevity and it turns out some things I thought I had covered disappear. This time I’ve probably gone too far in the other direction 🙂
I certainly believe rape is real. I certainly believe it has happened to people close to me. People have confided other sorts of private ordeals to me, so I’m sure rape is no less common. I believe rape is a horrific crime and that it forever changes a person. Maybe it testament to the strength of the human spirit that the majority of people can go on from such an event to lead happy and healthy lives.
In fact to clarify something I misstated before, I absolutely know people who have gone through it, however it wasn’t something we discussed, so I don’t include it in my experiences. I believe it is due to them having other confidants rather than my sense of humor 😉 I can be quite serious and sincere when the time calls for it, but that Men on Rape article left me needing some humor to enable me to bite my tongue.
As you know I’ve just had my little girl. I’d be lying if I didn’t say I’ve spent some time thinking about what is going to happen when she starts dating. I do hope I give her the skills to handle herself in a dangerous situation regardless of the specifics, and the judgment recognize a dangerous situation and get out of it. But I don’t plan on spending too much time warning her about specific dangers. I will discuss them, but I don’t want her terrified constantly.
What you probably don’t know is that a few years ago I found myself in a Bangkok bar, being plied with more alcohol than the local girl I was there with, being hit on by a guy (really? right in front of her?), and being asked if I didn’t need to make a trip to the restroom. It felt like a shady situation, so I never went to the restroom or let my drink out of my sight. I had a fun date that ended about the time I felt the urge to use the restroom and got to experience some awesome local culture off the tour map. The story is a lot more fun if you believe I narrowly avoided waking up in a bathtub full of ice and short a couple of kidneys. The point is I had an appropriate level of wariness. I didn’t run off and miss out on a fun evening and freak out an innocent (probably) girl, nor did I leave myself open to some sort of assault. If I am able to pass on nothing to her but that level-headedness, I will consider myself a successful father. I don’t want her to avoid taking risks – I just want her to be aware of the risks she takes and take reasonable measure to limit them.
Of course I’ll still probably teach her to kick for the nuts and to carry some sort of self defense – but out of preparedness, not fear. Anyway I’ve rambled enough and I’ve completely lost the thread of how this relates to false accusations.
Gary Forbis
July 23, 2010 @ 11:36 pm
I never meant to be on the subject of the types of rape you are talking about. My interest was in gray areas, so I will keep this brief. My position on violent rape shouldn’t need explanation. I don’t know of anyone who thinks non-consensual rape is just dandy or that women should just accept it as reality. It is horrible and should be prosecuted and punished with only slightly less prejudice than murder.
However, your linked article was full of anecdotes carefully chosen to reinforce a point and speculation as to what it might be like to live with the threat of rape, and uses these to come to specious conclusions. I couldn’t find any substance to it, even after I went back and read it in full.
What boggles my mind is, why would anyone choose to live in fear like that? There are events in life that are beyond my control, but I am prepared for them so I don’t fear them. I hope I don’t have to deal with them, but fear of them can serve no further purpose and just leaves us with anxiety.
The entire foundation of that article and your position is completely beyond my ability to contemplate. I’m sorry but apparently not only do I live in a different world from the women you describe, but you and I live in different worlds as well. I truly wish the best for you, but I feel it is unlikely we will be able to reach a common ground on this.
Be well.
Steven Saus
July 24, 2010 @ 6:53 am
Jim, you’re right. That wasn’t helpful at all. For those who don’t know, my dog whom I was very close to died suddenly yesterday. Which does not excuse me from being a jerk, and I would like to apologize to both you and Gary.
Veronika
July 24, 2010 @ 8:23 am
I am very sorry for you!
I understand your pain, I know it, too: when our beloved male ferret named Charlie died on carcer some yers ago, I wept for months.
Veronika
July 24, 2010 @ 8:58 am
:o) :o) :o)
You are right. I was/am very happy to have my boyfriend who tried/tries to understand me, protect me, help me and teach me about male sexual behavior (and many other things). But with all it, the understanding each other is still not easy. For example: I read circa a month ago “Venus and Mars in bedroom” by John Gray. I was surprised by one thing there – that men have sex with their beloved because they can easier (and more) feel love during and after it. Also, sex and love is by them strongly connected. But by women it isn´t and they don´ t understand it and often don´t believe it. (Women need to feel love BEFORE sex, they can´t feel more love during and after sex. Which is true – I need it and can´t it, too.) My boyfriend have told me repeatedly for years: “I want sleep with you because I love you!” I don´t believe him and I was angry on him. I used to say: “You lie to me! You have sex with me because you want to have sex with me, because your own pleasure, not because me and your love to me!” But Gray writes similar thing – and also it, that women commonly do´t believe it, because their love is not connected with sexuality… I felt so sorry for not believing him! I apologized to him and he forgave me. :o) I am glad that I was not only woman who have did it, that it is common thing in male/female relationships. But still, I feel badly for it. It was unfair to him. And we talked much together about sex. Also, I think that male-female understanding is not easy thing at all.
Veronika
July 24, 2010 @ 9:07 am
It is great true! But not only in male/female relationships.
I am fan of slash fanfiction and I write it myself and work with some other authors of it (as their support and beta-reader of their works), too. The first thing which each new writers of FF (not only slash FF) need to know it exactly this – that writers know what to want to say, but readers of their fanfiction don´t (and can´t) and because it writers must some things write much clearer.
Jim C. Hines
July 24, 2010 @ 9:45 am
I’ve thought about a lot of that with my own daughter. On the one hand, I absolutely believe that rape is the responsibility of the rapist, and victim-blaming is pretty much guaranteed to piss me off. On the other, I’ve enrolled her in Sanchin-Ryu, and I’m doing what I can to teach her to be aware and confident and able to protect herself if needed.
Though a lot of that, she’s going to learn whether I teach her or not. You mentioned in another comment about feeling like people are talking about different worlds … I think that’s kind of the point, or at least one of the points, of that article. Not that women all do or should live in fear, but that for a lot of women, rape is a constant factor in the background, and it affects day-to-day behavior. Whereas for most men, it’s just not something we tend to think about very much.
The Bangkok bar is a good example, actually. Imagine taking those precautions every time you went to a bar. Like you said, not fear, but simply having learned that the threat is both real and always there.
Anyway, when your girl’s a little older, I’d definitely recommend giving the Sanchin-Ryu program a try. It’s a fun style.
And I’m glad you still have your kidneys 🙂
An Non
July 26, 2010 @ 7:24 pm
Get the facts about false rape claims at False Rape Society.
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/informative-sources.html
Rape is a horrible crime. False rape claims are also horrible crimes and are a human and civil rights issue.
Athansor
July 27, 2010 @ 2:54 am
This conversation makes me want to crawl into a hole. When folks are talking about an intoxicated woman on the couch, guess what – she hasn’t given consent even if her tongue was down your throat earlier that night. There is no shady area, even if a drunk idiot rapes that woman. Drunkenness wouldn’t excuse him from theft. Why does it excuse a rapist? If I invite a guy home and pass out and he steals my car and my wallet, is it less of a theft?
Arrgh. I say this as a woman who has been raped twice.
Why are “yes means yes” and enthusiastic consent difficult concepts?
Athansor
July 27, 2010 @ 3:05 am
Oh, and back on topic from my previous side rant. Yes, false rape accusations can happen. I had a hard decision to make back in the very early 90s based on a conversation heard through a very flimsy dorm wall. I called the cops and the defendant’s law firm.